Navigating the 21st Century Job Market

Building a Coaching Culture - #119: Navigating the 21st Century Job Market === J.R. Flatter [00:00:00]: If you wanna win those 3 interviews and be an employer of choice and attract and retain the world's best talent, you better build a culture that allows you to win those 3 interviews. Ultimately, culture's the story. Voice Over [00:00:13]: You're listening to the Building a Coaching Culture podcast. If you need to compete and win in the 21st century labor market as an employer of choice, this podcast is for you. Each week, we share leadership development, coaching, and culture development insights from leading experts who are developing world class cultures in their own organizations. J.R. Flatter [00:00:45]: Hey. Welcome back, everybody. JR Flatter here with Lucas. How are you doing today? Pretty good. You and I are going to dinner in another hour and a half. That's always fun. Mhmm. There'll be 16 of us there. J.R. Flatter [00:00:58]: Always great time. Alright. I wanted to focus this session on the 21st century labor market. You're a lot closer to it than I am in age. We're both hiring people in the 21st century. We're experiencing that, working alongside people in the 21st century labor market. I just wanted to drill in to some of the similarities and differences or anything that comes to mind about the 21st century labor market. And we tend to think about things in generational perspectives. J.R. Flatter [00:01:32]: And there is a lot of that going on, but anyone who's working in this time is part of that market irrespective of their generation. So I'd like to broaden our conversation beyond just an intergenerational conversation, but I I'm certain that it'll be part of that. So what what comes to mind when you think about the 21st century? Lucas Flatter [00:01:54]: I guess, generally, with, like, talking about, you know, things used to be this way, now things are this way. It's always kind of like a value judgment as if to say, like, things were better in the past or, you know, back in my day kind of thing. But sometimes I feel like we're not talking about, like, what is the ideal like. So, like, just because the labor market looked like x in the past and it might have been better than now, like, was it even close to what ideal we're reaching for now? Like, almost thinking about it from more of, like, a time agnostic kind of mode where it's like, what do we want the labor market to look like, and how do we get there now? You know? J.R. Flatter [00:02:46]: Yeah. And that dialogue goes in both directions. People of the earlier time, you know, I'm thinking all the way back to 1900. Your mother and I are watching a series that's set in 1907, so it's fresh on my mind. And everybody's in horse horseback or in a carriage drawn by a horse. And so I bet in 1907 even, they were thinking, man, things are changing so fast, and the old ways are being left behind. And the youth of that day were like, my dad doesn't know anything. Exactly the same conversation we're having today, 125 years later. J.R. Flatter [00:03:31]: It's actually been happening for 1000 of years. A lot of that is the change is real. And, you know, when you think about the good old days before penicillin, before civil rights legislation, I mean, just look at the life expectancy from 1900 versus 2,000. I mean, it's almost doubled. So something that's a new nuisance today would have killed you a 125 years ago. We fought 2 very bloody world wars since then. And so in many ways, it wasn't the good old days. It there's something about the human animal that is nostalgic. J.R. Flatter [00:04:12]: We remember our childhood and how wonderful it was, but we forget how hot it was and how hungry we were and how tired we might have been. Maybe that's a blessing. One of the things we teach when we talk about the neuroscience of coaching is that memory is unreliable. We tend to remember the fish is bigger than it actually was, and it grows every year. So there's a lot of that going on. One of the things that I think that the young younger generations are criticized for is completely a function of where the world is today, and that is loyalty. I think that was a nostalgic myth rather than real. When the model was learn, work, retire, if you had a skill, you tended to stay at a job. J.R. Flatter [00:05:09]: Your choices were very limited, and the technology advanced rather slowly. I've told this story several times before of a good friend of mine whose grandfather, just one generation removed from him, worked for the same company in the same building doing the same job for 50 years. Those days are gone. That company's bankrupt. That industry moved overseas. The technology that he was using is no longer relevant. You know, we joke almost every session we get together that Moore's Law is dead. You know, the time that it takes for technology to double, it's it's almost immeasurable sometimes because it's so quick. J.R. Flatter [00:05:54]: Version control, you know, versions are gone. We edit in real time. We improve in real time. So what we might have labeled as loyalty never was. And I don't wanna be cynical, but I think that's just an accurate description of where we were and and where we are. When a young Gen z sits looking at the future, wherever they might be in their life's journey, the technologies and the skills that they have today, Now the model is learn, work, learn, work, learn, work, maybe retire. What are your thoughts? Yeah. Lucas Flatter [00:06:38]: I mean, we've started with, like, talking about loyalty, and, you know, it's hard to be loyal to even an industry that might not exist in the future or a technology that won't exist in the future or organizations and companies. And maybe, partially, there's this I mean, not partially. This is pretty evident that there's a big distrust in institutions in general. So, you know, whether it's the Republican Party, you know, the Democratic Party, you know, whatever federal whatever agencies, like, any large institution, even like the HOA. Like, it's like any, organization kind of it has this skepticism, like, what there's something shady going on in the background or something that, you know, they have all all ulterior motives. And and I I mean, I totally see why I have the same skepticism. But maybe in the future, we need to, you know, think about improving these institutions instead of just, you know, wanting to just eliminate them and go back to, oh, everybody's on their own, you know, where these organizations don't serve us. But, you know, originally, they came together because people wanted to serve others in some way. Lucas Flatter [00:08:06]: So how can we improve institutions instead of throwing them away? J.R. Flatter [00:08:10]: Yeah. That's a great thought. Your brother talks about that all the time. When you go in to help an organization, he's an efficiency guy. You probably know better than I do. Helps organizations become more efficient and therefore more productive and profitable. He always says, you don't throw the baby out with the bathwater. It's working. J.R. Flatter [00:08:36]: That's why you're here. Even if you're facing bankruptcy, something worked for a long time. And there's a great book called The Innovator's Dilemma that talks about, you know, how do you break out of your success because it's no longer working. It's a common phenomenon that a successful corporation doesn't outlast the founder because of that very reason. This is how we've always done it, and it's worked all this far. Well, you push that too far forward, and it's always gonna break down. I think another reality of the global labor market for the, 21st century global labor market is the fact that it is global. We've been experimenting for a long time with outsourcing, with measured success, good and bad for various reasons. J.R. Flatter [00:09:25]: But the labor market now is far beyond outsourcing to the point of in many professions, it doesn't matter where you are. Technology, cultures of organizations will allow you to be anywhere. I just talked to a guy yesterday that works for a customer in Washington DC at a very high level in the organization yet lives physically in New Mexico, which is 2,000 miles away. And he he's not the exception. That's the rule now. Is our culture keeping up with that or our business processes keeping up with that? And, actually, are we encouraging and supporting that sort of global labor market? And it doesn't necessarily have to be global, just geographically separated. Do you need that person in the same room? I know as we hire people, a lot of people are stating in their resume without any prompting, only looking for virtual opportunities. And if you say absolutely no, that's gonna really restrict. J.R. Flatter [00:10:38]: And especially the the thinner the margins are in your profession, the more it's gonna restrict you because you're very price sensitive. So I ask a lot of people that I coach with, is this existential? Like the life of the business depends on it, or is it annoying? And I think in that case, most often, it's just annoying. What do you mean you don't wanna come to work? Everybody comes to work. You think of the lost productivity and commuting, funds to commute, People subsidized commutes one way or another. Lucas Flatter [00:11:12]: The trend that I'm seeing, and I'm not sure if this is, you know, kind of been bubbling in the background for a long time, but it's almost like the business itself might be completely decentralized where it's like, you know, I have a product that gets developed in China with custom box, and then it could ship directly to the, you know, this drop shipping idea where I might just take an existing product and rebrand it and then ship it on demand. So in that case, my manufacturer, the designers, the people shipping the product, like, everything could be completely separate, and I'm using all these kind of little microservices to get my product to people. And I feel like it could even go further in that direction. You know, we you even experienced, like, maybe this department in this organization, like the accounting department is outsourced or, you know, the IT department is outsourced. So I guess, to just wrap up this thought, like, do you think that, like, that's kind of the trend that we're going towards where the organizations are really, really even more decentralized? J.R. Flatter [00:12:30]: Yeah. Absolutely. I think this is, trends globally, not just individual workers, but individual functions of the workforce. You know, it's different when you're building cars. And even in car manufacturing, just in time manufacturing has been the norm for quite a while. The engine shows up hours before it gets bolted into the car as does every other component because there's a cost of inventory. But I think when you broaden that idea to the entire labor market, the right person on the right task at the right time, and then they go their way. This theme, I think, goes right into the gig economy. J.R. Flatter [00:13:18]: I often hear it called portfolio careers, where you don't work for anyone. You work for many people delivering your particular skill or skills. There's a lot of drivers behind that. A lot of it's personal. I don't wanna rely on some large global organization for my well-being. I wanna rely on myself. I'm a lifelong learner. And if I plug in to a single job, it's gonna flatten my growth. J.R. Flatter [00:13:52]: Yeah. So I think there's a a gig economy, the portfolio careers that it creates, I think, is here to stay. And, again, if we are trying to become an employer of choice in this hypercompetitive global labor market, we better be thinking about these things. Lucas Flatter [00:14:12]: Yeah. Like, I think maybe just like we say, like, AI, this product was not aided by AI. It's like this company, like, we actually know each other and we work together and, you know, there's something to that. Like, I could see where even if I was really successful in in developing a product, but, like, I'm the only person, you know, in the organization that's hands on with it. Everyone else is doing, like, a piecemeal part of it. I don't have an organization of people that are, like, champions for the product, and maybe that becomes now it's more difficult for me to reach a target audience. Like, there's something to be said that, you know, x amount of people all work together to accomplish this goal and they were all invested in it. J.R. Flatter [00:15:02]: Yeah. And I think, you know, task organizing for projects gets towards what you're describing or even programs. Right? So I might not you might not sign my tax form, but I'm here every day contributing to this team. You can still build a culture, and you should build a culture of what you're describing. So the fact that you're not signing their tax form and doing their payroll is somewhat separate from, are we a strong team? And that's a huge change in mindset. So they're not physically here. And now they don't even work for me, in the traditional sense. Why would I invest in building a culture or a sense of teamwork? Well, it's absolutely in your best interest to do that in the short term and in the long term. Lucas Flatter [00:16:00]: It's like you have to market to the people that are, you know, helping you build the product. It's like that message. I guess you're gonna build that message externally if you're selling to other people, But maybe you have a similar message that says, like, you know, we're all on the same team. We're working together. You know? J.R. Flatter [00:16:20]: I think it is a good example of that is Apple, and their culture seems to be really strong. I've never worked for Apple, so I'm an outsider looking in. And they don't build phones. They design them. Lucas Flatter [00:16:36]: Designed in California. They market them. Made in China. J.R. Flatter [00:16:41]: I have never researched this, but I suspect there are dozens of suppliers of different resources to to make that phone. So the most successful company in the world right now from a revenue perspective, that they've embraced this idea and been quite successful at it and have built a pretty strong culture around it. Lucas Flatter [00:17:04]: I guess, like a negative example, like Uber and the way that they the relationship they have with the drivers, it's kinda adversarial sometimes. But maybe those gig economy companies are like yeah. I guess they're pretty much what I've been hinting at and describing. It's like, do any of those have really strong cultures that we should look at, I guess? J.R. Flatter [00:17:28]: Yeah. That's a great question. Again, I've never driven for Uber, but I've taken a lot of Ubers. And oftentimes, the drivers will talk to you about their experiences. I don't wanna put my economics hat on, but there's something that's drawing them to that profession. It's an entirely voluntary role. And as human beings, we tend to complain. I was just complaining to you about my experience with Hertz, and they don't have a good customer experience. J.R. Flatter [00:18:00]: Every time I call them, it's hours of investment to solve a challenge, but I still keep renting from them. Yeah. That's an interesting thought about who could we study in the gig economy. I have an Upwork account. And if you're in Voice Over [00:18:16]: the gig economy, you have to find J.R. Flatter [00:18:17]: a way to get yourself out there if it's more than word-of-mouth. And, you know, the way the market's working to so look aside from the labor market, but just look at the market with the generation and availability of information now, hoping that you can communicate your message to someone and they will come to you is fading because they're finding you. If they have a problem, they're finding you. And if they if you interest them, then they're gonna reach out. But the days of caveat emptor, you know, buyer beware, now it's provider beware because the consumer has so much information. So when somebody comes to you and sits in front of you at an interview, you have their resume. You listen to them talk. How are you making your decision to say yes or no to them? I'm genuinely asking you. J.R. Flatter [00:19:17]: When somebody's interviewing? Yeah. For a job that you have open. Lucas Flatter [00:19:22]: Like, how do I make that decision? J.R. Flatter [00:19:24]: Yeah. Yeah. I'm asking you to be a little bit vulnerable here. Lucas Flatter [00:19:27]: Yeah. I mean, you would say, like, for a technical interview, oh, it's all, you know, objective. Like, are they good at x, y, z? For me, it's more, like you've described in the past. Like, when I'm trying to solve a problem, it's all about defining the problem. So, you know, if they can look at a problem and describe their approach and describe how that differs from other approaches, it goes a long way to tell me that they do have those objective technical skills, but also that, you know, my technical skills might only work if this condition is met, and then this condition is met, and this condition is met. And, you know, you're coming to a whole new organization where all of those things are changed. So I'm looking for the ability to think about problems in a more generic sense and be able to solve problems and unexpected variables. So I don't know if that answers your question. J.R. Flatter [00:20:34]: No. It does. I got a couple more. How did they find you? How did they show up at the interview? What's that process look like? Lucas Flatter [00:20:43]: Usually, in my experience, they've applied. They've found the job either, like, through, like, LinkedIn or Indeed. And they might have had, like, an HR style interview before. J.R. Flatter [00:20:57]: So there's at least 3 opportunities for them to interview you before you ever get to interview them. So they've they saw the job announcement or a friend said, hey. There's a job opening here at Flatter. You might wanna look at it. And they go do their homework about you. Who are you? What are you doing? Try to find out what your culture is like. Are you legitimate business? Are you gonna take care of them? And then HR does a a check, a compliance check. Do you have the degree? Do you are you a citizen? Etcetera, etcetera, if that's a necessity. J.R. Flatter [00:21:37]: And then on the 3rd level, they're sitting virtually or in person with you, and they're checking you out. Like, do I wanna work with this guy? So that's what I mean by, you know, the market has changed such that 50 years ago, you were the holder of this scarce resource called the job, and you set all the rules. You wanna work here. This is how you're gonna dress. This is how you're gonna speak. This is what time you're gonna show up. This is your desk. Here's your phone. J.R. Flatter [00:22:09]: Well, not 50 years ago, but you probably had one on your desk. And now all that's changed. And you might want to fight that and resist that. If you wanna win those 3 interviews and be an employer of choice and attract and retain the world's best talent, you better build a culture that allows you to win those 3 interviews. Ultimately, culture is the story. The story that they're gonna tell themselves about your company. Do I wanna work here? Is it gonna give me purpose? Am I gonna get paid competitively? Am I gonna have time to hike and fish and bounce my new baby on my knee? Have date nights. Whatever it is you wanna do out of work. J.R. Flatter [00:22:58]: You know, ultimately, am I gonna be able to achieve my life's purpose, which is probably very personal. Tangentially, at best, is professional. Lucas Flatter [00:23:07]: I guess to just try to bring it all home. We talk about the organizations changing going into the future, you know, the difference between the relationship of employer and employee now versus in the past, and what it might look like in the future. But it's this human connection trying to communicate, you know, this is the experience you might have spending time with these other humans. So bringing it back to just this coaching culture of trying to see the human, you know, see the full person, find out about them, be curious about them. I think that's something that's going to supersede all these changes and things that are you know, humans remain constant. And I don't know if I would say constant, but humans remain more or less constant. So if we're valuing them and treating them as such, then it should be, you know, a lasting strategy. J.R. Flatter [00:24:16]: Yeah. Good thought. And one thought came to mind as you were talking and that is this idea of existential or annoying. On our side as the employer, there are some existential must haves. We say a lot, hire to attitude and train to skill. But there are some skills that you want or need people to show up with day 1. Culture, there might be some cultural, existential. If you're working in certain industries, what does that industry expect of you? Maybe a uniform. J.R. Flatter [00:24:52]: But that existential list should be relatively short because everything you say I must have when I'm on the other side of the interview is some freedom that you've taken away from me. And if it's not an existential freedom, it probably shouldn't be on the list. But there are existential realities, and it's up to you, the the the person with the job, to identify them and enforce them. Again, I would caution you, make sure they are existential and not simply annoying. Alright, my friend, see you in a couple hours. Well, that concludes this episode of building a coaching culture. I truly hope that this episode was helpful to you. If it was, be sure to follow us wherever you listen to podcasts. J.R. Flatter [00:25:41]: Maybe stop and give us a rating or review Voice Over [00:25:44]: and share this podcast with someone who might find it helpful as well. Thanks again, and we'll see you next time.