Building Cultures with Intentional Communication | with Grace Gavin

Building a Coaching Culture - #126: Building Cultures with Intentional Communication | with Grace Gavin === Grace Gavin: [00:00:00] So to build that trust, we need openness and honesty. And honesty is being truly and freely yourself, speaking into what you want and how you feel. So trust is a huge part of it. J.R. Flatter: Hey, welcome back everybody. I'm J. R. Flatter, and this is Building a Coaching Culture. Today we have the honor as our distinguished guest, Grace Gabbin, And Grace has pretty diverse background, and I'm quickly going to pass the torch over to you, you can explain your background much better than I, Just to remind our listeners and viewers, what are we here for and what's really the purpose of this podcast? So we're in the 25th year of the 21st [00:01:00] century. We're a quarter of the way through the first century of this new millennia. It's hard to believe, but people's expectations of their organizations are changing. It's a global labor market, hyper competitive, and If you were to ask Lucas Rai, it's all about culture and a coaching culture is the culture of the 21st century in our humble opinions. So that's why we talk about building a coaching culture, even though I know we haven't met each other, I know I'm gonna like you already because you grew up on a dairy farm like I did. you look behind me, you'll see my Holstein cow and a goat. Our herd were Holsteins. You might even see my bull riding bell and bull rope. Back when I was really young and dumb, used to ride bulls. But with that, I would love to pass it over to you, Grace. And one of the few times in your life, I want you to [00:02:00] really dive in and brag about yourself because you have an amazing background and amazing. company. Grace Gavin: Oh, well, thank you for that, JR. I appreciate that. And knowing that we share a little bit of a farm background, just, I just love that. So I grew up as the last of eight kids on a dairy farm where we actually had Holstein cattle, so I'm right there with you. And through that time learned a lot about what I'm doing now and didn't, didn't know that's what I was doing. And from there, I then jumped into the professional world after a number of years in school, and I started working at a daycare, actually. So you want to talk about the work that I'm doing now in communication? It's all similar, whether you're talking to a 3 year old or you're talking to A 30 year old or a 40 year old or a 50 year old, we all are still working on this skill of communication. And then from there, I went to be an executive assistant with my now business partner, actually, working with leadership teams, supporting them, understanding what it is, the struggles [00:03:00] that they were going through in their organizations. And what we just kept seeing over and over again was this. blatant lack of communication that was happening in organizations. And so we really dug in deep to, I read so many books, interviewed people, understanding what's at the root of this issue. And what it came down to was a lack of openness and honesty. And from there, we've built out our entire organization just around that centered around helping people be honest and be open as the foundation of communication, because that is how teams are going to move forward better together. And we've been doing this work for. A number of years now and we have a book that's coming out soon that we've been working on for three years, just very entrenched in this and very interested. I've always been interested in how do human beings communicate together? How do we work together to get towards these big amazing things that we do? Whether that's, you know, building skyscrapers or Finding cures to diseases, [00:04:00] or non profits that are working to solve humanitarian issues, or businesses that are helping people do better in the tech space and healthcare and things like that. And just, it all comes back to human beings being able to communicate really well together. And if we don't have that, everything else is so much harder than it has to be. And so, Now, fast forward to today in my career, I get to be the one helping leadership teams do that. And not only their leadership teams, but also their staff, because they're beginning to recognize the importance of having everybody have these skills and talking about it in the sense of culture and having people willing to continue to learn and to grow because that's what I'm seeing what people want is those types of cultures. So that's a little bit about me. J.R. Flatter: Congratulations on your journey. Lucas Flatter: so, you know, with that in mind, how important communication is, um, what are some of the biggest barriers and what are some of the biggest enablers of this kind of communication? Grace Gavin: Well, the [00:05:00] first, the biggest barrier is a lack of awareness. I mean, how many books do we put out there on communication? How many theories are there? How many discussions are we having? at a really high level when we're talking about the research that's being done. And it's fabulous and it helps us understand more of the world, but how accessible is it to people? To people in their everyday lives, in their organizations? And the answer is, it's not. And so that's a huge barrier that I see is people just don't. They look at it this big complex problem and get scared because they don't know where to start. And so beginning with simplicity in mind is is a huge part of it. And then just having very clear expectations and understanding this is how we're going to communicate together. This is how we're going to act as a team and having those very clear guidelines for people helps so much. And when we don't have that, we're just in this weird ambiguity, not knowing what's moving forward. Like the worst thing for human [00:06:00] beings is to not know where they stand. As humans, we can handle good news, we can handle bad news, we can handle the ugly things in life. We can handle all those things. We're pretty resilient. What we can't handle is not knowing. Because then our brain starts to make all kinds of stories and then you can imagine when you're working in a team how distracting that is and how much that can can ruin productivity on a team. Does that answer your question, Luca? Lucas Flatter: Yeah, absolutely. you know, I, I've had some of these issues, so you're preaching to the choir. Thanks. J.R. Flatter: Yeah. So one of my key performance indicators of my leadership is, is my team willing to mock me and make jokes about me. And one of the reasons that's because there's a lot of trust in the room. Right, they know the, they know the chairman's not gonna jump down their throat if they make a little joke or point out the fact that I have a blue or a purple phone holder or, you know, [00:07:00] something silly like that. So it sounds like part of the baseline for this kind of honesty is trust. How do you help people build that trust? Grace Gavin: it really starts out at a baseline and so to build that trust we need Openness and honesty. And honesty is being truly and freely yourself, speaking into what you want and how you feel. So if you think about the big terms like authenticity, vulnerability, all of those things. Again, making it simple and accessible for people, that's honesty. And then on the other side, and what we struggle with as human beings more so, is openness. And that's listening without reservation, putting your needs and wants on pause for someone else. And so what that does is really acknowledge, hey, there's two people in this conversation, or when you're talking about a team, there's multiple people in this conversation, and each person needs their opportunity to be heard and respected. But if that is true, then that means we have to do that for every single person, not just for ourselves. And that's when we [00:08:00] start to really build trust and where I see it happening for my teams. Because if we can let somebody have their voice at the table and everybody else sees that that's happening and we're listening and we're being heard and respected, and then the same goes for the next person and the next person, then bam, immediately you are building in more trust into that team than if that weren't the case. So trust is a huge part of it. Lucas Flatter: I'm in software development for part of my career and so I see also sometimes the problem with, you know, over communication potentially, kind of having conversations that don't necessarily enable the productivity. is that something that you worry about or try to mitigate? Grace Gavin: Yes, I have seen it with teams where we just seem to circle around the same issue over and over. And over and it's, this is a problem. This is a problem. Okay. We've clearly identified that it's a problem. [00:09:00] So we've got people being honest. We know what we're dealing with and we've got access to that, but now we have to make a decision and a plan to move forward and really helping people be clear and actionable. So it's not just about, Hey, Kumbaya, Love Circle, all those things around. That's fantastic. But when we're talking specifically about teams, we have to have action moving forward. And that's where I think. We've got to be really clear in our communication and to say this is, this is the outcome, this is the goal that we're moving towards. Knowing that, what's the communication that we have to have here? And I've seen it time and time again with teams where they just get stuck on the problem and almost can't see the solution because of that, because the problem seems so big and helping them step back and say, we're just trying to move forward. We're trying to move to the next step forward today. And how do we do that? And getting that communication back in line, back to being productive. So it's not just all those, Hey, you got a minutes, you got a minutes, and then nothing moves forward. We got to have action steps at [00:10:00] the end of a conversation to know that we're going to move forward. J.R. Flatter: So, We're mostly interacting with adult human beings. I agree completely with you. Human nature is human nature. And if we're violating human nature, we're probably moving in the wrong direction. But also, and some people called this code shifting, talking differently in one environment versus another environment. The way I talk to my grandchildren is very different than the way you and I would have a conversation. and I'm looking at your definition of honesty, being truly, honesty is being truly and freely yourself. And we might call that our authentic self. You mentioned authenticity. But also our corporations and the organizations we work in, for profit, non profit government. have ethics and core values and dress codes and expectations you said treat each other with [00:11:00] dignity. How do you reconcile me being my true self with aligning myself with an organization? Mm Grace Gavin: I get that question a lot. And it's, it's understanding that there's not, there's not, there's an unending amount of organizations out there. And so what you want. to do in the interview process and really as you're beginning to work with an organization even depending on how long that process is is is to understand is this the right fit for me as a person and where my values aligned and what as what I'm really working towards in my life what my goals are is that aligned with this organization and then same thing to the organization to who's hiring people is this person aligned with where we want to go? And if the answer is yes, great, we move on. But the, if the answer is no, then that's okay too. And what we've learned is more about the organization and then you as an individual, you've learned more about yourself. This is not the fit and to go find a better spot for where your talents and your [00:12:00] wisdom can be best put to use. And so it's not about everybody fits everywhere. It's about finding the right fit for you and acknowledging that. There's going to be conflict in our lives for all time because we are, we're human beings that have had different experiences and because of that we come to different conclusions. And so knowing that you're not looking for an organization where you don't have conflict and where everything aligns perfectly, but one where you can work through that conflict together to go and make better outcomes because we're always going to have conflict. We're always going to live with it. But the question is. Is it the right kind of conflict? Are you having the right kind of discussions to help move yourself forward and to move the organization forward? Are you there to help and put your talents to the best use possible? Are you there detracting and not helping the work? Because then that's a conversation to have for yourself. But also to have with the organization and say, am I aligned with this and understanding what that is? Because that's the beauty of the society and [00:13:00] the system that we live in, is that there's so many more options out there and there will be an organization that you align with and that aligns with you. And don't stop until you find it. J.R. Flatter: hmm. Lucas Flatter: I also, you know, you mentioned earlier, like, you sometimes get lost in, in your own perspective, either a team or as an individual. How important is it to have kind of an external view or somebody to, you know, kind of look from the outside in to assess these things? Grace Gavin: Yeah. I think You have to know what's right for you and you have to know are you questioning yourself? You question the organization so much and what you're doing is actually right? Or is there something that's actually off that you need an outside perspective? So I'll speak for myself and I know in in my own mind I can get to questioning a lot of things. I want to get to the root of it and sometimes I have to know is this just me being doubtful? Is it something inside [00:14:00] me, or is it something inside this organization that I'm in, or this team that I'm in, that something's really not going right here? And discovering for yourself what that is, but also having a conversation with somebody. To share that honesty is a gift to somebody else. And if there really is something wrong within the team or within the organization, you're giving a gift to unleash that and to say it plainly for people. Because if you're feeling it and it, and it's really happening. Then it's likely happening for others too. And sometimes we're like fish and water as human beings and we don't see for ourselves and can't fully understand, even though we can feel that something's not quite right in our bodies, we don't always know what it is. And so I love bringing in an outside perspective just to say, Hey, can you temp check this for me? Where, where are you at? And then it's really important that we're able to be open to that person. So if we're going to go ahead and ask feedback from people. We have to be willing to be open to it, to listen without reservation to it, and knowing that that person is giving it [00:15:00] because we've asked and we're receiving it with love and care, knowing that we're going to be better for it. J.R. Flatter: I'm interested in Hundreds of books out there, if not more, on culture. I probably have half a dozen of them right here behind me to talk about culture. describe for me the ideal culture in your eyes. Grace Gavin: That is such a good question, JR. I think to me the ideal culture in an organization is one where people are right on the precipice of feeling challenged, but also feeling stable. And so, the way that you know that is by talking to people and understanding where they're at and having those open and honest conversations. And to me, that's, that's the bedrock of culture and then you build up on top of that. But if you don't have people willing to share with where they're at on, hey, I am way overwhelmed. And I need some help. I need some support or I'm not [00:16:00] being challenged enough and I need more on my plate or I'm at a really great spot. I had one of my clients tell me one time, we were talking about what do you really want out of your, out of your workplace? And everybody was giving various answers. I had one guy who said that he, he wanted more challenge. He wanted to take on more because he wanted his wife to be a stay at home mom. And so that meant he had to rise to the levels of leadership to be able to do that. And then we get to another guy and he says, I actually don't want any of that. He said, I just want to work so that I can be able to go and skateboard. Like, yes, that's what we want from people. That's the kind of cultures where. People can be at different points in our lives and be able to say those things. And so you build core values around that and you look for the people that you want, but ultimately you want people who can just say what it is that they want. And then you can help them get that. Because when you help your employees get what it is that they really want, that's when I believe you create fans for a lifetime. Whether they stay your [00:17:00] employees or not, they will love your organization till the end of time if you're helping them get what they really want. And when you can focus on that, Along with helping getting your clients and your customers what they really want, then I think, man, that's exactly where people want to be. You're going to start attracting people to you and that's the kind of culture you want to build. J.R. Flatter: No, that's all great stuff. Thank you. Lucas Flatter: You mentioned kind of like the intuition that you might have to, you know, I can kind of feel that this is right or this is wrong, without necessarily the context to communicate exactly what's going on. And, it just makes me think about, you know, like working with three year olds versus older people. I have a five year old, for example, and I see that he takes a lot of things face to face. Which can be helpful, but then he doesn't have like all of the additional context. so I guess my question is like, do you lean more towards the, you know, intuitive side that takes things at face [00:18:00] value or, is it, you know, the knowledge and experience we have is more valuable or maybe a mix of both? I don't know. Grace Gavin: I do think it's a mix of both, but it's a little bit different. And the way that, that I think about that is when we say something to somebody or we give a directive as a leader, knowing that that person is going to take it at face value of what they want. We say, but then knowing they have all of the experiences in their life behind that, that are going to color that and going to influence whatever the directive is that we give. And so recognizing that and helping if you can build the context around it to, you know, I'm not saying go have an entire long conversation about it, but just build a little bit more context around it. This is why we're doing it and this is where we see this going. To help them to not just have those baseline assumptions, because that's what we all do. When we don't have enough information or context, our brain will fill in the blank for us. And oftentimes I see I [00:19:00] see leaders having a fear of over communicating things. I just, I don't think you can over communicate. You can spin your wheels and continue talking on an issue like we were talking about before and not moving forward with clear action, but I don't think you can over communicate with your people. And, uh, Getting that clear across from them helps a lot more, knowing that everybody's experiences are gonna color what it is that you have to say, so help them color that in. Help them give a little context to it, because otherwise they are gonna just take it at face value and fill in the blanks for themselves, and that's maybe not necessarily what you want. J.R. Flatter: Yeah, you reminded me of a story of the Ford, the CEO of Ford Motor Company, coming off the stage and being congratulated on giving a great speech. And person said, it looked like you really enjoyed giving that speech. And he says, yeah, I do. And I've given it 5, 000 times, you know, that's communication, saying something once and expecting it to be understood, not so [00:20:00] much, Grace Gavin: They've done research that somebody has to hear it seven times at least to be able to hear it for the first time. And I think in our technology distraction divided world that we live in, it's, I would say it's way past seven at this point. J.R. Flatter: I'm going to write that one down because I know in networking, which we all do as human beings, it's a minimum of three interactions before I'll say, yeah, I know Grace. Grace is a good person. And we'll recommend you to another person. So the math quickly builds up, right? And a lot of what we do and a lot of what you're talking about ultimately comes down to an opportunity cost discussion. What am I doing versus what I could or should be doing? You mentioned core values a minute ago. I have some pretty strong feelings on core values. And, you know, you also talk about freedom. And so I wrote Policy for a Living for a while, and I [00:21:00] realized every time I write something down, I take away someone's freedom. And so if I write down a core value, I've told them, here's what I accept, but everything other than that, I don't want you to do. And so how does one write and then communicate the right core values? Grace Gavin: I think it depends on where you're at as an organization. And so if you're a bigger organization, your core values should come from all of your people. And how you decide to collect that, if that's surveys, there's a million different tactical ways to do that, but really understanding why do these people come to work here every day? What do they care about? What does it mean? And also understanding that your core values are not only a driving piece for your employees, but also for those who do business with you. So maybe you could understand from a few key customers, why did [00:22:00] they work with you over anybody else and understanding that. Now, if you're at the beginning phases of a company, you have a little bit more liberty there, a little bit more freedom to decide what your core values are and really build your company and your culture around those core values. But also still, the same thing applies of understanding what is it that the marketplace is out there that wants you for? What do they value out of you to understand that? And then you as, as a leader, kind of place do you want to come to every day? People might not say it in exactly the same words when it comes to core values, but there's the same feeling that people want to have. They want to feel like they belong. That's one of our core human needs is to belong. And when we spend the majority of our time at work, that's a big part of it. And so how do we help people belong? And core values is one of those ways to do it. And using really good communication to do that too. And understanding how are we going to speak to this? So we have the kind of people in here that are going to help us [00:23:00] move forward to row the boat towards the direction that we really want. I would love to know how do the two of you define a coaching culture? J.R. Flatter: Yeah, beautiful question. so as I, in my opening remarks said, we're years in the 21st century. And it's a global market, hyper competitive. People's expectations of their organizations are changing. It's much more virtual. You think about work, family, and self. So I'm a baby boomer. I came from the analog generation, where if you took a vacation, you were kind of looked at sideways, like you're abandoning the team for seven days. So a culture and culture, and you hinted at this a moment ago, is a culture that attracts and retains the world's best talent. For me, if you were to ask me to define a culture, I would tell you it's the story that people tell about the company. The employees, our [00:24:00] stakeholders, our customers, you and your co founder tell a story about no honesty, but then the world gets their opportunity to tell the same story. Are they living up to the story that they're telling us? And so coaching, writ large, is all about looking forward and facilitating growth. One of the biggest differentiations between coaching and culture, or coaching and therapy, therapy looks backward and helps you heal. Coaching helps you look forward. there's a couple of ways, you coach within a corporation. And I define corporation as any complex organization, not just for profit, but non profit and government as well. and are you taking every opportunity you have to grow your team and actually grow your stakeholders? the final step of a coaching culture, any culture for that matter, is when people are telling [00:25:00] the story. They also say that's just how we do things around here. we hear a lot about, I have an open door policy and I'm, people oriented, all those things are communication. Really, where the rubber meets the road is the demonstration. So that Ford CEO could have said all of those great things and then gone out and demonstrated the opposite. you're not going to get the culture you want. You're not going to get the story you want. So it's a 21st century culture that attracts and retains the world's best talent through a focus on personal and professional achievement. So if I were to ask you right now, close your eyes and tell me where you are in 30 years and what have you achieved, I'm confident you're going to tell me three or four personal things. You're still alive and healthy. You're not living paycheck to paycheck and you're surrounded by [00:26:00] people who love you. Those are life's goals. And do you work in a culture that supports and achieves both those personal outcomes but also the professional requirements to get you there? Are they training, giving you education opportunities? Are they giving promotion opportunities? Do they respect you? Do they support and encourage personal and professional achievement? Because it's a win win. I win as the employer because you're going to be attracted to my organization and you're going to stay and you're going to not have distractions. And you're going to fulfill our vision and mission and you win because you're creating financial freedom for yourself. You're spending time with, with family and taking care of yourself and working hard. Long answer, but, uh, Lucas, you could jump in here if you, you, [00:27:00] we work so much together. Yeah, Lucas Flatter: you know, coaching sessions one on one in that micro sense of, you know, you're building trust and safety. You're putting the whole person out there to, you know, let them lead the conversation to try to come up with solutions. So just scaling that out where, in an organization we have trust and safety, I'm able to communicate, you know, with the people I need to without feeling like, you know, I'm going out of bounds and, and. The result of that, you know, should be that we're solving problems together, you know, that's how I think about it. J.R. Flatter: I quite regularly have, I'm not the CEO any longer past, Leadership to the next generation. I'm still the chairman and the owner. And I have people walking in my office all the time and say, I think we're going in the wrong direction on this topic. And [00:28:00] that makes me very happy. now we can have a back and forth discussion of why I think what I think. And they tell me what they think. And then we compromise on a path forward. And I think there's a lot of analogies between what you've described and what we would describe as a coaching culture, coaching relationships, and coaching sessions. I think you're implicitly saying a lot of the things that Lucas and I would say explicitly. Grace Gavin: Yeah, most definitely. And having people being able to walk into your office and give you that level of honesty, what that tells me, J. R., is that you have a high level of openness to the people around you. And because of that, That's what's driving the honesty, and that's what I see a lot of people miss all the time. They're like, why can't my staff be honest with me? Why won't people just tell me what's really going on? The hard truth is that there's likely a lack of openness [00:29:00] happening. Whether you're doing that intentionally or unintentionally. But let's talk about that. Let's bring that to light. What are the walls that are blocking you from being open to the people in your life? Because once we can clear those out and you develop a higher level of honesty, because it's a skill, develop that skill a lot higher. Then you're going to see people be a lot more honest with you because they know they can bring it to you and that you're not going to explode. You're not going to be angry with them or shut down or any of those types of things. You're going to hear what they have to say, and then you have your honesty back at them. And it's great both ways because when they're able to be honest with you, then they're also going to have a higher likelihood of being open to whatever it is that you have to say. But a lot of times I see leaders just, nah, they just can't understand why their people wouldn't just come and tell them that. Why they tell me things that they wouldn't tell their leaders directly. And it's because of that. And that's the skills that we need to work on developing. And it's not to to shame or to blame [00:30:00] anybody, but to recognize, hey, we have more work to do. We're human beings who are learning and developing all the time. And if that's our goal, then this is the next step. This is what we need to work on to collectively do better together. J.R. Flatter: And to continue on that thought, one of the first things we talk about in our education programs is, open your heart, and open your mind. And it all stands on the foundation of courage. Do you have the courage to say, I don't know, I don't know. What do you think? lot of leaders, especially newer leaders, they're, they have to be the answer person. You know, my name's on the building and therefore, somebody comes to me with a question. I owe them an answer. Well, you're really short circuiting the potential because your advice is not nearly as good as you think it is. You grew up in a very different place under very different [00:31:00] experiences, very different educations, ethnicities, genders, any number of things, even identical twins who grew up in the same houses with the same Parents are vastly different human beings. And so to assume and I tell the joke all the time, this worked for me in 1981, and it'll probably work for you in 2024. I mean, that's just absurd at its face, right? Because most people I have that conversation with weren't even born in 1981, let alone going to accept. My story from 1981 is relevant to their lives. Grace Gavin: that's exactly right. And I see it happening. We have an assessment where we Get the numbers, the real time data on where people stand with openness and honesty, and I've been seeing a growing trend, and that's that my young professionals that I'm working with, people just entering the workforce or just entering management, [00:32:00] they struggle to be honest a lot more, but they are very good at being open. They are like a sponge just taking it all in learning and that's fantastic. But what I have to tell them is hey, we also need your honesty here. We need to know what you're really thinking because you were hired into this position for certain expertise that you have and that you were specifically chosen. You were the best one. So we need to hear that from you. If you see something that we're going down the wrong path towards or a better opportunity we could go towards, we need to hear that from you. And then conversely on my My higher leadership teams at the executive C suite level, whatever you want to call it. There is less openness and more honesty because rightly so they've gotten to that point. So there's a certain level of knowledge that they have. But then what they're missing is people closer to the issue sometimes and closer to the clients because they're having conversations day in and day out with them. We need to develop more openness there. Bring that back to remember when you were First time manager and you were just learning things and soaking things [00:33:00] all back in. Let's get back to that mentality. Let's flex that muscle a little bit more because you have all these people around you. You hired these people because that was not the best and highest use of your time and it is of theirs. So let's get back to listening to what they have to say. And I'm not saying you lose your honesty by any means. Keep that high, but let's listen to people a little bit more. Give them that opportunity to speak and then have your honesty back. And that is, that helps a lot more to help that, the power dynamic that tends to happen between newer levels of management and leadership. J.R. Flatter: Yeah, you've just reminded me of the different kinds of power. power that we're most familiar with is positional power. Because I'm the co founder, that's why. I'm mom, that's why. Now how long does that last? there's expert power, relationship power. Coercive Power, Reward Power, and the final one, and people define it differently, I [00:34:00] call Referent Power, R E F E R A N T, and it's you follow me because you believe in me and you believe in my vision because we built sufficient trust between each other. That's the only one that grows, and that's the only one that lasts. Grace Gavin: Yeah. Lucas Flatter: so I'm really interested, you mentioned, you know, somebody that's the, you know, secret skateboarder at the office or, there's this joke amongst guitarists that were. It's like, who could possibly afford X, Y, or Z guitar? Like, it's like, astronomical, and the answer is always, oh, that's for the dentists that play guitar. and you think about maybe, maybe playing guitar, like, actually makes them better dentists, like, they're more dexterous or something. so my question for you is that, do you have any of these kind of hidden talents or hobbies that That, you know, give you some perspective that helps you in your nine to five. Grace Gavin: Oh, I've never been asked that question. That is so interesting. J.R. Flatter: I [00:35:00] warned you. I warned you. Grace Gavin: I, I love this. This is so good. Uh, I got two for ya, and they're not so secretive or crazy by any means. People know this about me, but the first one is reading. I am a huge avid reader, also audiobook listener. And, you know, I read the non fiction professional books and they help me absolutely, I love them. But what I've just done recently, in the last few years, is I love reading non fiction, or fiction books too. And what I choose to do with my fiction reading these days is I intentionally pick authors and stories whose lives I will never experience. So whether that is a book, a movie, or a novel. Fun story about three Chinese best friends and how they're about to all get married and all the customs and things that go through that or if it's, Gentleman in Moscow about a man in, in Moscow going through all of these [00:36:00] experiences during the war, or if it's about, just all of these different stories of perspectives that I'm never going to have, but in reading it, you get a sense of what that might be like, and through the author's words, feeling that story and just having a little bit more empathy and understanding for those experiences, which I will never go through. And then the other thing that I love to do is garden and what gardening teaches me day in and day out is patience because I will plant my seeds the first day and I will go out the next day and think to myself, Where are all of my plants and where's all of the the fruits of my labor and they're not there and the next day they're not there and then they're not there and then all of the weeds come in and I got to pull all those out and I think about that in terms of company cultures too of these are things we're we're building and going over time and we got to pull the weeds and we got to help the plants continue to grow to the point where now we're just starting to see the [00:37:00] fruits and vegetables of our labor you But it's taken us a couple months to get there and to understand that patience. Patience is I'm constantly learning over and over and over again as somebody who wants to go, go, go, grow up in the technology age of things being at my fingertips in a snapshot. It's just patience over time. And that's how we're going to build better teams, better companies, a better world, really, is patience over time and investing in people. Oh. card. That's a really good answer. Thanks. J.R. Flatter: Well, thank you so much for being here. It was really an enjoyable conversation Grace Gavin: Yeah, likewise. This was fun. You guys asked some, some interesting questions and, I hope my responses turn this into a great podcast that your guests love and I'm excited to share it with our network too.