The Joys & Challenges of Starting a Coaching Business | with Leigh Collier

JR Flatter: Hey, welcome everybody. JR. Flatter here, as usual with my co-host Lucas. Lucas Flatter: Hello. JR Flatter: And our distinguished guest today is Leigh Collier. She's a coach of ours on our team. I shouldn't say ours. She's in the Two RL family living in England. So, Lee, we'll let you tell your story, in a second. We want you to brag about yourself cause. I know you have a lot to brag about, so don't hesitate to do that. but I'll just remind everybody. Our audience leaders of complex organizations, we're in the 24th year of the 21st century as we're recording in this, and so leadership kind of staying the same, but the expectations people have of the organizations and work, what it means to have a career is changing. Any of the above. Coaching, leading entrepreneurship, freelancing. So, Leigh we'll turn it over to you and tell us all about yourself. You don't. Leigh Collier: Sure. Okay. Well, um, I mean, to start with, I'm a person that's kind of interested in many different things and I don't do any things by half, so I kind of throw myself into a lot of different areas of which coaching is one of them. By day I work in the finance industry doing mathematical modeling. So I have a very technical background,but I do so much outside of my life as well, outside of my working life as well. So I'm a musician. I play piano, cello, and guitar, and I sing as well. I play in an orchestra, and, you know, I do lots of solo stuff. I record music, I write music. I'm really into my fitness. I do a lot of sports. I lift weights. I did wrestling for a little bit of time as well.I do lots of cycling. I am a fourth degree black belt in TaeKwonDo, which I'm not sure if I've ever, ever mentioned to you before. JR. And then on top of all that, I do the coaching as well. So I've been really enjoying my coaching journey so far. I started training with jr. It's been a kind of big revolution in my life to acquire this new skill in coaching. I've always been interested in leadership development, but it's taken that one step further and I'm currently in the process of setting up my own coaching business as well in amongst all the other things that I do. JR Flatter: Yeah, I don't know. But you, Lucas, I feel a bit inadequate Lucas Flatter: Yes. JR Flatter: so none of the above is on my resume. All right. Well, talk to me about coming from a quantitative background. I love that you're a numbers person. And now you find yourself in this new, very qualitative field, a lot of emotional intelligence. How do you get your head around qualitative versus qualitative? Or do you balance it? Leigh Collier: Yeah, it's interesting. It's, they are two very different worlds in some respects. I definitely feel like, because I have kind of the different range of interests, I feel like I'm fairly well balanced. For a quant, and I get told all the time for a quantitative person, you speak really well. So when I come into this kind of world, I realize maybe I'm not as creative as I seem to come across in my quantitative world. so the, yeah, there's definitely a bit of a balancing act there for sure. but I mean, ultimately communication is so vital for technical people because you can be the most brilliant technical genius in the world, but if no one knows what you're talking about, then you can't apply it. You've lost your audience immediately. So for me, kind of having those two sides really go hand in hand and being highly technical, it's even more important to. develop Those leadership skills, those communication skills, because that's just such a fantastic combination to have those two sides and see where you can go with them. JR Flatter: And I think if you look at the continuum of technical knowledge, cognitive knowledge, emotional knowledge in the technical and cognitive, if you wanna be a leader of people who are technical and cognitive, you definitely need to start exploring that qualitative emotional intelligence side. yeah, so that kind of gets my brain jogging about, you know, you think about presenting, you know, quantitative data to people and you're like, okay, the numbers speak for themselves, but they don't necessarily speak for themselves. So could you elaborate on how the coaching skills might help you present and kind of speak to that data that you're presenting? Leigh Collier: Yeah, you've given me a flashback to when I was doing my undergrad, I studied math as an undergrad and financial math as a masters. And I remember being in a lecture one day and the lecturer kind of writes up a few steps and goes, well, clearly this is this, and then just goes to the end and you're like, I have no idea how you made that jump, so having been on the receiving end of that and then trying to work out that logical jump, I mean, I definitely see the value there. I think, one thing that the coaching really helped is being able to listen and really hear what people are telling you. If they tell you that they don't understand a particular aspect or something like that, it allows you. put yourself in a position where you can hear them, you can hear what they're asking, you can understand them. And you know, I think it's really good to be curious about what it is that they see in the situation. Just because you are the technical person doesn't mean you necessarily always know Beth. and I think the other thing is really. as a technical person, a lot of us are kind of brought in to be the technical expert in the room and there's quite a lot of pressure on that to know all the answers. So I think being able to say, I don't know in this case, or I didn't actually follow what you just said is so important. Kind of, yeah, be able to have that empathy with people and also, you know, remove your own ego from the situation. Be able to have open conversations if you're going, clearly this is this, then you've lost the entire room. JR Flatter: Yeah. I think also in a complex organization as executives make decisions, it's not all about the data. , there are so many other factors that contribute to the decision, budgets, culture, the nasty word, politics, preferences, strategy. And as a emotionally intelligent executive presenting data, you better be ready to have those other aspects as well and be able to co. So I know in a coaching world, one of the things we recommend is coaching people who are vastly different than you are, and I know you're in some very successful relationships in your coaching world, people that are completely different than you are. Can you talk to us about that in not only the process, but your comfort level going into that? Leigh Collier: I actually really enjoy coaching people that are very different from me. I think that as coaches sometimes if we hear a situation that's familiar, it can be hard for us to completely let go of the fact that we relate to the situation and step back and be objective to it. And that's something that we're always trying to work on improving.but we are humans and so if we have a situation or a background that's very similar to us, sometimes we're actively fighting against that urge to. say Oh, I know what to do in this situation or kind of, you know, you really don't wanna be given advice, but it's there, it's niggling at you. Whereas if you are coaching a completely different background, um, then you don't have any of that preconceptions at all. and you're really free to be curious and. kind of r remove some of those biases that you have and just be completely curious about the situation. I also really enjoy the fact that, you know, I coach a lot of people from the US military, and I remember one time you asked me to coach someone who's a very senior rank and I agreed to it and you said, you know what you just agreed to. And I had absolutely no idea I, you know, I love that aspect of, I didn't know at all how senior this person was. I didn't know what this person's life was like at all, but I could add value and I could coach them just by stepping back and having that different perspective and being genuinely curious in what they're doing. So, you know, I love a challenge. I love new Fu to coach. I do like coaching within my own industry. I'm, I really enjoy coaching technical people, but it's nice to get that balance as well of an area that I just don't know at. Lucas Flatter: we make the comparison between starting a coaching relationship and kind of learning a new skill, like getting to know somebody and having that curiosity that you mentioned as somebody that has so many skills, you know, the black belt and being in orchestras and things like that. Do you have an approach to learning a new topic that you could share with us? Leigh Collier: Oh, that is a wonderful question. Um, I would say that I learn things that I am genuinely interested. And so when you are genuinely interested, it, it kind of gets you to dive in more in these things.I definitely, I'm someone who very much has a schedule. you know, I get up every day, I go to my home gym and do lift some weights. Then I go to my piano after that, and then I get ready for work. You know, so everything is scheduled in, and when I'm adding a new skill to my roster, then it has to have that time put aside to it. If not every day, then, you know, every week have some time dedicat. If you're just exploring that particular skill and focusing on that particular skill, I also like if you can kind of relate it to stuff that you are doing already, or you can find a way to do it with other people. That's another way you have that kind of accountability if you're doing it with other people, but also you have that. Excitement to learn and to be there with when you have that social aspect to it as well. And I know that when I started coaching I, and the coaching training, I enjoyed it from the start, but over time I built up those relationships. And now, you know, every time I log into the sessions that we have, you know, I see my friends there that I've made over the course of it. And it's just great to have that community feeling. You know, I do the coaching cause I love it, but I also love the community feeling there. So for, you know, any new skill it's making the. Finding friends who do it to come with you on your journey and just making sure it's something that you really enjoy and can find passion in. Lucas Flatter: Awesome. JR Flatter: So talk to us about some of the joys and some of the challenges of starting a coaching business. Leigh Collier: Oh yeah. So this is very pertinent to me right now. so yeah, this is something I'm very much in the process of, and it's funny kind of seeing the places that I feel comfortable and then the places that I really don't feel comfortable at all. so, you know, I can sit there and I can make a plan and I can, schedule my time and I can, you know, do any math that I need to do about, any taxes, accounting, all that kind of stuff. That stuff all kind of comes naturally to. me But the whole concept of, okay, now I've gotta get out there and find clients and I've gotta sell my services to clients. That is something that immediately I could feel myself kind of shutting down upon the first time. I kind of thought about doing that, because those kind of sales skills, marketing skills, these sort of things just don't come naturally to me at all. And so one thing that I kind of had to realize, is that by holding these things in such like regard of, I, I dunno how to do this. I'm not cut out for this. I was just stopping myself from even trying. and so I had to find the ways to kind of step up in ways that were a step forward for me that pushed me outside of my comfort zone, created those growth opportunities. But weren't so scary that I would just keep putting them off. So, you know, the first place went to be, you know, ask some friends, does anyone wanna do any coaching for a cup of coffee? And then after little Wise, I managed to build myself up to saying, you know, I'm gonna start charging for this. I'm gonna charge mates rates. and then, you know, being brave and reaching out to my former university as well, which is something I did recently. So I've got a conversation going. All these kind of steps that I'm taking are pushing me a little bit further outside of my comfort zone, and with that, expanding my comfort zone a little bit more. So, you know, for me right now, the biggest challenge is getting the steady stream of clients in because it involves putting myself out there in ways that I'm not comfortable with, and it's great growth. Lucas Flatter: you mentioned kind of transitioning from doing kind of like coaching for your friends and, and your, within your network and then starting to charge,How do you kind of transition to that and, and is there a kind of idea that you might be diluting by not charging, diluting the value or what, what's your opinion on that? Leigh Collier: Yeah, that is something that, I've thought a lot about actually, because, I've always understood the value of coaching and how it is so powerful. From the first time I kind of saw it happen immediately, I could see that this is very valuable. The stumbling point I had to get over for myself was that I didn't believe that people would pay me to do it. So it was never a kind of issue with coaching as a whole, but it was a mental block as with myself rather than with coaching in general. so you know, the early days when I was coaching for a cup of coffee was really, to me that was practice sessions and I was telling them that these were practice sessions and were very much me finding my. As well as, you know, providing some value to them. And so from that perspective, I, I felt like I wasn't diluting the value of coaching because I was using this as a training session. I was very open about using this as a training session, but at some point I realized, okay, I'm, I'm doing this for real. This isn't just training sessions anymore. And that's when the switch kind of had to start happening and. That's when I started being brave enough to say, okay, I'm gonna charge significantly more than a cup of coffee to do some coaching. And, you know, I'm still building up, for the most part. I am offering mates rates to my friends while I kind of get the word out, but I also ask them for referrals and testimonials and things like that. And I'm gradually starting to build up a pool of clients that aren't people I already know. and so establishing myself firmly in the business from. Lucas Flatter: Great. So yeah, building up, you know, your internal feeling of I'm a, I'm a great coach, and then also, you know, building the network at the same time. JR Flatter: Yeah, you've reminded me of James Clear Atomic Habits. Lucas. one of the things James talks about in creating a new habit or becoming someone new is to begin identify as that thing. So I suspect, Lee, now that in your conversations with people you self-identify as a coach, as well as a musician, quantitative analyst. Lucas Flatter: TaeKwonDo. JR Flatter: Black belt. Oh my God, the list is too long. so, you know, one of the things you're hinting at, is this idea of being of an imposter syndrome. I've been leading for 40 plus years, I've been in business 20 plus years. I still have those inkling doubts If you come up from a service background, which a lot of our people in our cohort come from a service background, whether it's nonprofit or military or government. And the idea of asking someone for a dollar to do something is just foreign to us. but I was being coached one afternoon in a mentor coaching session by three people in the cohort. You know, all of them. One of them was in South Africa, another was in Sydney. . And the third one was in, uh, Detroit, I think in in America. And we were talking about this exact thing because I was having that challenge. So I said, please coach me through this. And it occurred to me why would I ever be the least bit hesitant to ask for a dollar for something that had created those three magnificent coaches. And so for you and anyone else getting into the coaching, talk to us about the change that you create in people's lives, the joy that you create in people's lives. Leigh Collier: Wow. Yeah. I mean, for me, one of my turning points when I was moving from that I'm learning to be a coach, to I am a coach in those early days I heard someone say, you know, I want to progress in my career. I want to pursue leadership and I don't need to apologize for that. At the end of a coaching session, and then immediately after we'd finished, we walked away. She sent me an email saying, I feel like a weight has been lifted This is very early on in my kind of coaching journey, and just between the, what she said to me and the email that she'd followed up with, I kind of walked away from that going, wow, I actually changed someone's life today. that was a huge moment, uh, to have to,I did this and in the space of just one hour, this was the first, session in the relat. and I changed their life just in one hour. that's not the last time that's happened, that's happened since in similar situations, but it's the first one that really hits home the most because that is the first time I realized I did this. Through the power of coaching, I managed to do this. And so I'll always remember that one very fondly. JR Flatter: Yeah, that's great. Thank you. Lucas Flatter: I like to ask people that, you know, if you've mentioned your hobbies and your skills and things, um, so do you see those things crossing over to coaching or even your skills in finance crossing over to coaching? Leigh Collier: I think that gonna refer to a book and I'm trying to remember the author, the name escapes you at the moment. There's a book called Range How Generalist Triumph in a Specialized World. I dunno if you've read that, but. For me, reading that was kind of like a light bulb moment because we have fantastic specialists, but it's being able to apply knowledge from cross disciplines that where the real kind of success comes about. you know, when I think about my day job and the kind of quantitative work that I. It's through doing things like my music and my performing that gave me the confidence for things like presenting and public speaking that many people struggle with, that I've learned completely outside of that. So when I think about putting that into context with the coaching, I mean, I think that for one thing, I mean, it. Me a way to help build rapport with people. When you have things in common, then that's much easier to build that rapport and that sense of safety with people. it also kind of widens your perspective when you are not stuck just in one particular world, but you get lots of different perspectives. You get to meet a lot more different people You have a much wider perspective as a coach through meeting all these different people. I think it helps you think in different ways and that helps with your. You know how you respond to people. You become curious if you're used to thinking of lots of different things and in lots of different ways, it allows you to be much more agile in your conversations when coaching. and I mean, I love to coach people that have a music background, that work in music, that want to work in music. I love to coach people who are in sports and fitness and all that kind of stuff, just because I find them super interesting. I love to coach people with a technical background as well. just cuz those things are interesting to me. So, you know, I feel like anything that makes us a well-rounded person is a benefit to our lives and our growth. Lucas Flatter: Yeah, I want to read that book. It seems like you can look at things from all sorts of different lenses when you have that perspective. JR Flatter: Yeah, it's David Epstein,wide generalist triumph in a specialized world. and I cheated. I went to Amazon and looked that up while you were talking. but really you open a really interesting line of thought here. A lot of our leaders that we coach come from a military background. It's not by accident. We call them generals. We call some of them admirals, but the reason they're called generals is there are general. And then when you think about the continuum from technical expertise to cognitive expertise, which you have both, and now you're in this emotional expertise, this emotional intelligence expertise, and what it takes to traverse across the back and forth of all three of those. And one of the things you talk about a lot is reinventing work. So years ago, I would bet if someone asked you, what does it mean to work hard, you'd have a very different answer than What does it take to work hard today? Lead the lead the coach, least lead the emotional judge and leader. Talk to us about your willingness and ability not to leave behind your technical and cognitive, but to, in many ways set them Leigh Collier: Hmm. JR Flatter: This more generalist, emotionally intelligent place. Leigh Collier: Yeah. I think as I've progressed in my own career, when you pay attention to people and you observe what's going on around you, you notice patterns and you notice that. Some people are wonderfully technical, but it only gets you so far and there's so much more that you need to bring to it. And you know, through my own kind of experiences and the mistakes that I make along the way, the things I learn, I've realized that ultimately everything we do, even in a highly technical role like I do myself, it all comes down to people. And you need to be able to bring people with you if you want to. You know, you come up with this amazing technical model, but if you don't bring people with you, no one is gonna use it. You can't get anything done unless you have people along the side. And it's also the fact that, even if we are very independent, we can't work a hundred percent alone all the time. And so, Meeting the right people. Be becoming. And I always say about networking because I mentor a lot of university students who are quite worried about networking. And I always say to 'em, it's just making friends. You know how to make friends. You've been doing it for your whole life. And so the friendships that you make and you build as you do, your networking are the things that help you move forward. And whatever, you know, model or technical thing that I'm working on, it ultimately comes down to the people that I'm working on it with as to whether it's gonna succeed or whether it's gonna fail. Lucas Flatter: so you've mentioned, you know, The networking, working with people to learn a new skill, you know, the importance of bringing in other people. if you kind of have that mentality of, you know, I can do this alone, and you're having trouble, having that vulnerability to say, I, I can do this with other people, and it's gonna be better with other people. do you have ways that you, you can help people kind of break down and become more vulnerable and open to working with others? Leigh Collier: Mm Oh, I'd absolutely love to coach that situation. it's interesting cuz vulnerability is very scary but when you have that bravery to be vulnerable, you realize how many other people are vulnerable as well. and I, I've told this story to JR before, but I remember during the pandemic when we were all kind of struggling a little bit. At one point I started doing therapy because like many people I was struggling. And it wasn't until I started doing therapy and mentioned it to some friends that I realized how many of my friends were in therapy as well. And if we'd all kind of been a little bit more vulnerable with each other, we all would've felt a little less alone, much earlier. on but it's hard kind of having that courage to be the first person to put their hand up and say, I need help. so I mean, that is certainly something, work through with a coach or even with a friend or someone you trust. there's always someone that you can be a little bit vulnerable with and build that relationship with them, help it feel a bit safe and brought up that confidence to ask. for help JR Flatter: Yeah, we, coach a lot of senior leaders and do 360 assessments at all of those senior leaders and. , the majority of them are introverts. It's counterintuitive, but they know getting out there and building and sustaining relationships is part of that growth. If you wanna be an executive leader in the 21st century, you better develop your emotional intelligence. It goes back to Malcolm Gladwell, what got you here won't get you there. And I've coached senior leaders. , you want to continue to be promoted later on asking, you know, what do I have to do to make that happen? And I tell every one of them, you have to be courageous enough to let the technical and the cognitive not go, but no longer be the center of your life people are now the center of your life. And you get their head around that. So, I'm not sure where I read this. Might've been Brian Ellwood, nailing Your Niche. I think it was. We love that book. I love Brian. he talks about Coach your five yourself, yourself, five years ago might be a good niche for you. So if he stopped and thought about who you were five years ago and who you are today, what might you tell Lee in 2018? Leigh Collier: Wow. That's a great question. I definitely think she would've needed to hear a little bit more about. The relationship building aspect. she wasn't bad at it five years ago, but, I think the relationships that I valued five years ago and the relationships I value now maybe look a little bit different. but I would also have advice around enjoying the journey. you know, five years ago I was very much in a rush to get as far as fast as I could in my career. and a lot of people I work with now definitely feel like I still have that problem, . So I wouldn't say I've completely let it go. but I think that I've definitely learned that it is the journey. It's not the destination and. I should fill my life with lots of things that enjoy me and lots of ways that I can get a sense of achievement and a sense of success. And a sense of purpose. Because not every day at work is gonna be a good day. And when things are a bad day, if you don't have other things in your life to prop you up and give you that sense of self work, you are gonna spiral , which is definitely what used to happen to me. You know, a bad day at work would just destroy my mood back. But a bad day now, you know, a bad day of work is a bad day of work. I'll come home, I'll do some coaching, I'll play my music, I'll go to my orchestra practice, and I can let that go a lot more now than I used to back then. Um, which is, you know, a lot of it's to do with maturing, growing, learning more about myself. and, you know, I think I would've benefited from a coach back then as well to help me with that. Lucas Flatter: so we kind of touched on it with, uh, l learning different skills, but, and then you kind of mentioned it again when, when you get home from work, you can kind of like change modes and change your mindset. Do you have any, um, techniques for that kind of going from one cognitive space to another? Leigh Collier: I mean, for me it's very much timetabled in Lucas Flatter: Hmm. Leigh Collier: so I know I will be doing this thing at a particular time. it's very helpful to have that kind of, this is my time that I protected you, this thing. I can't say that every day I manage to just make the switch. The switch isn't always easy and I'd be lying if I said it once. Some days it's not easy and I have to. Evaluate why. And maybe I have to deal with something like maybe there is something that's really bugging me that I didn't get to finish at work or I didn't send an email at work that I should have done. And maybe the right thing to do in this point is just take 20 minutes, finish off the thing from work I need to do and then put it aside. those days are definitely in the minority for the most part. You know, I. I do the things with the music and exercise and coaching and all these kind of things because I I want to do them. all of them are genuinely a joy for me to do. you know, there's good days and bad days, but all these things are so important to me that I need to protect the time to do them. I need to prioritize the time to do them. And so, I have to be very disciplined with myself in that if I want to achieve my goals with the coaching, my fitness goals with the music, then they have to be a priority and I have to make that transition. and you know, the other thing that makes it easier is that I just don't really sit down when I get home. I don't really give myself that time to, Think about the day or whatever. I will launch into it and my thinking will happen after I've got the things that I wanted to do. Done. Lucas Flatter: Yeah, they say that like, if you don't wanna run or you don't wanna work out, just tell yourself it's just gonna be five minutes and within five minutes you're like, oh, I'm, I'm. Leigh Collier: Yeah, JR Flatter: Yeah, you must be reading my mind. That's exactly what I was telling myself about an hour and. It'll be okay. It'll be okay. All right. you're a very ambitious person. I know you're what I would call relatively, if not significantly driven. not right or wrong, just an observation. we coach a lot of different people with very different houses of leadership, very different principles, very different work, family, self balances, visions. How do you coach somebody who may not be as driven as you are? Leigh Collier: Yeah, to be honest, I think the answer to that is go with them. I've recently been coaching someone who's been a bit voluntold. . and they're not driven to go to the next level. And you know, that's what they're there for. They're being told, go to coaching to help you get to the next level, but for them, that's not what they want. And so I said, okay, well what do you want? And, you know, people have other priorities in life and it's not for me to judge them if their goal isn't to get to the next level or whatever it. You know, I, I, as a coach, I'm not judging my clients. I'm there to add value to what they want. And if what they want is more time to just chill out, then we'll look at how there's more time to chill out. it kind of goes back to earlier saying, uh, enjoyable to me, to coach people who are different to me, because it presents new challenges because I can, I don't feel, I don't get that urge, that I know the answer. I don't know the answer. I mean, I never know the answer, but I don't know the answer for them because they're so far away from my perspective. Lucas Flatter: Something I, I like to ask as well, um, thinking about, you know, the movies that you watch, the books that you consume, just, you know, pop culture in general. Has anything that you've seen lately, um, kind of put out a light bulb and made you think, oh, that relates to coaching or leadership development? Leigh Collier: Oh, I love, would've loved to have prepared for this question. Uh, Lucas Flatter: I am a huge nerd. I'd be like, oh, Harry Potter. I don't know Leigh Collier: Oh, man. Okay. I'm gonna go for something very out there. my favorite TV show of all time is the late nineties, early two thousands sci-fi called Fast. And the premise behind that is you have this US astronaut who goes out to do a science experiment, gets sucked into a wormhole and ends up in a completely like different part of the universe. I'm almost quoting the exact, uh, introduction here, but.there's an episode quite early on into the whole show where, um, he's wandering around with, another alien, so to speak, and they're on a planet at this point. He's settled in a little bit. But he's wandering around and everything. He's looking at, oh, that's so cool. I dunno, how does this work? And all that kind of stuff. And he says to this character like, aren't you amazed by everything that's happening around you? And I think that curiosity that he has, you know, he's overwhelmed, he's in a new situation, but he's just curious about absolutely everything. And that curiosity is something that I try and look to bring into the coaching that I do. Just having that wide eye, like wonder. Why do they think this? What are, what is going on in their world? Who is this person in front of me? So that would be my answer to that Lucas Flatter: Oh, I'm sorry I put you on the spot, but you knocked it outta the park and there's gonna be the Far Escape viewer that's like, ah, this is my favorite podcast, JR Flatter: Yeah. There's a reason we don't do that. We like to have raw, real, So, this will be my last question. We have a tradition here. Lucas get asked the last question. so we talk a lot about 30 years and those being life goals, five years and one year being objectives. the first time you tell somebody about those things, like, can't even tell you what I'm having for dinner tonight. How could I possibly tell you? how do you sort through that as a coach? I mean, we're simultaneously telling them to find joy in their lives, so, uh, talk to us about how you work through that. Leigh Collier: Yeah, so I think I, I find myself asking a question, what do you want? Quite regularly? because there's a lot of people have a lot of should, um, needs and they don't think so much about their wants. And when you ask someone initially what do you want? You kind of get, often get the more kind of surface level. I want to achieve this or whatever, but it's usually over that shorter timeframe and it's kind of when you probe a bit deeper, okay, what do you really want? What do you actually want outside of that? What do you actually want? That people start to kind of reflect a little further and look a bit more holistically and kind of have that wider perspective. I've never, you know, I've never asked, where do you see yourself in 30 years or anything like that. people tend to be a bit dear in headlights if you ask that kind of question, but you know that question of what, what do you want? What else do you want? It really kind of gets people thinking and opening up, and then they start to say things that are much longer lasting than the one year or two years that they wanna get promoted or whatever. They look much more at the long term of what they actually want their life to look like. Even if we are having this conversation about careers, you can't isolate your career without thinking about your life as a whole. Lucas Flatter: All right. I'm gonna do another, uh, cliche with a twist . So if you could have dinner, no. If you could coach one person, you know, in, in pop culture history, you know, living or dead, who would it be and, and why? Leigh Collier: I am gonna say, oh, this is gonna be really nerdy one again, but I'm gonna say, princess Leo from Star. Um, because I mean, we're all familiar with the story of the original trilogy of Star Wars, but the things that she goes through over the course of that film series and the struggle she has, the mental resilience, she shows all of those things would be such an interesting case to coach through and finding out, you know, we, it's made clear in the movie. Why she's doing what she's doing, but peeling back those layers and finding out, you know, the core of everything she's doing, the decision she's making, I think she'd be absolutely fascinating to coach. Lucas Flatter: Thank you. Well, I wasn't laughing at you. I was laughing when you said, um, everybody knows this story and then looking at my dad and thinking, He doesn't know this story. JR Flatter: Yeah, you just, you just showed some of your unconscious bias. everyone knows All right. So, uh, this will be the official end, end of the conversation, but before we did that, I wanted do this. Thank you so much for giving us some of your time. And this is gonna sound a bit braggadocious, but I don't remember. I don't mean it to be. You have grown so much in the last year, year and a half. and I'll take some tiny bit of credit for that, but man, what it's great to see, uh, great to see, and one of the things we talk about ironically, is we don't get to watch ourself grow because we see ourself in the mirror every day. We're with ourself 24 7. And so I just wanna take a moment to celebrate that with you, if you don't mind.