Nurturing Conversations: Understanding People and Gathering Insights | with Nakisha Hicks

Building a Coaching Culture - #79: Nurturing Conversations: Understanding People and Gathering Insights for Building a Coaching Culture | with Nakisha Hicks === Nakisha Hicks: [00:00:00] when you're thinking about building culture, I think it's really being thoughtful about the values and then you build out strategy based upon the values. You hire people based upon the values. I think you also have to communicate those values well. Right? You have to communicate and define them J.R. Flatter: Hey, welcome back everybody. JR Flatter here with my co-host Lucas. Our dis guest today is Nakisha Hicks, who we will introduce in a [00:01:00] second. let's just remind everybody while we're here and what we're doing. So this is a podcast focused on building a coaching culture. and I know that you come from that world, Nikisha. so we're here, we are competing and succeeding in the 21st century from an HR background, a coaching background, a leadership development background. What does it take to compete and succeed in that world? Lucas and I think it's a coaching culture. and so that's the focus of our leadership development, coaching coach training. So this is where we'll pass the torch. Over to you, Keisha. Looking at your bio here, you got a really impressive background, so go ahead and brag on yourself for a few minutes. All the great work you're doing. Nakisha Hicks: Hey, I appreciate that. my career spans over, ooh. 30 ish years, like I could just like, date myself with that. but I started in HR when HR was actually personnel. so before actually people thought about the human side of it, we just thought about the people side of it. I've been able to have a wonderful career that I've spent time in different industries. whether [00:02:00] that been nonprofit, government manufacturing up in the whole, through kind of the whole thing, I'm supremely proud of the opportunity to actually have my own, HR consultancy type of business. that is both an HR consultants and z and an coaching business at the same time. So it's an all in one shop. so I've been able to support several different people that are what I would call emerging leaders. Or in leadership and to really be able to walk alongside them in this journey, this crazy journey called leadership, right? that we know is ever changing, with the landscape of just the workplace. I've been able to speak on some dynamic stages and, be on podcasts such as this one, which I thank you for this opportunity. and so I'm just happy to be here and to be on this platform. Thank you again for sharing this opportunity with me. J.R. Flatter: Oh, thanks. Thanks for being here. We're,we genuinely, appreciate you being here. I love the name, the Elevate her. Talk to us about that. Brag on that a little bit. Nakisha Hicks: Yeah, so the Elevate [00:03:00] her, was something that I birthed actually in 2020, January, right before the beginning of the pandemic. Right. I dunno what I was thinking. Right? Who knew the pandemic was gonna happen. but the premise behind the program or the name of the company was really thinking about elevating women in leadership. And elevating women in workplaces, period. Right? Because we know that there are all kinds of, wealth gaps. We know that there are pay gaps. We know that there are gaps in representation in leadership. And so my thing is I wanted to be able to stand in that gap and to provide, a significant, type of impact on being able to bridge that gap. And so there came the elevate her. and so although, I support a lot of women, I've been able to support a lot of fine men too along their journeys as well. J.R. Flatter: Oh, good stuff. Thank you. Lucas Flatter: so thinking about, specifically women in the workplace from an HR perspective, we tend to think about, you [00:04:00] know, maternity leave and I. maybe gaps in the resume due to child rearing and things like that. Are there other issues that, you know, we're not necessarily thinking about that should be at the forefront of that? Nakisha Hicks: I think when we think about pink collar workers, so to speak, right? I think yes. most of the time, a large percentage of the time women are the ones that are tasked with the duties of the child rearing, right? And so we saw that significantly, during covid when, you know, kids were out, you know, who was home with them moms, right? Or momlike figures. and so. we do know that's a space, we know that, you know, maternity leave. But then we also know that in most organizations you have parental leave, right? Which allows for dads too, to take that time off. but I think that we also have to understand that, sometimes depending upon the households, the male may be the breadwinner in the household. So then what happens? The woman is at home, [00:05:00] right? And so That's something I think we need to take into consideration is like, sometimes it's better for a woman to be at home, right? The cost for her to actually be outside of the home working is not enough. I mean, it's more than what she would make being outside of the homeworking, right? And so if you're thinking about the cost of childcare, all the different things comes back to that. It's like, well, here we go. Right? and so that's why people like myself push for, pay equity. And push for paying women truly, what they should be being paid and in comparison to their male counterparts, which we know is not the case. And it goes significantly. You see even more significant, deficiencies or gaps in that when you think about women of color. Right. That gets even wider. So it's, I think those are some things that we need to think about. J.R. Flatter: So who, whose responsibility is it? The individuals, the corporations, our culture. Who are we talking to that can create this change? Nakisha Hicks: Who are we not talking to? [00:06:00] Right. I think it's everybody. Everybody has a piece of that, right? I think from a cultural perspective, we have to shift in the ways in which we, we view. Work the way in which we view equity, the way in which we view access. I think as a culture we have to do that. I think organizations then have to think about it, strategically how are they implementing fair and equitable processes and procedures and protocols and practices within their organizations. But I think also, from an individual standpoint, I think individuals have to understand their worth and their value. I. And be able to advocate for themselves, but, and be in places where they're safe to do that, which means psychological safety comes into play, which comes back to being an organizational deal and then also funneling that even back up to an acultural space where it has to be a space where people can feel comfortable enough to say, I need more. Lucas Flatter: at the beginning you had mentioned, a kind of shift in maybe the HR culture or the attitude where [00:07:00] it went from personnel to being about the human. what do you see as, where are we going next? Is there another shift happening in the future? Nakisha Hicks: I think you know, the landscape of, HR is always changing. I. Just when we thought we were getting a little comfortable, you had covid, then now you have ai, right? So you have all of these different shifts that are happening. the workforce is different. Like we saw that with, remote work, the need for remote work, people understanding productivity in a different way, working from home. So I think that, the landscape as we know it is changing because of the different generations within the workforce. And so I think we have to kind of be futuristic in our thinking because here's, I was having a conversation and I was, with a friend of mine and we were talking about AI and we were talking about robots. And I was like, but here's the thing. Okay. I, again, I'm gonna date myself. I'm over 40. Okay. And I was like, but I remember watching the Jetsons. [00:08:00] Right. So this was something that somebody was thinking about years ago. So what that means to me is that we are just now catching up to some of these things, which means that they were already forth, these things were in the making, we're just catching up to them. And so it's a lot about acceptance and understanding, like where are these things going? Right? but I think. Even thinking about how we think about d e I principles and workplaces and legislature around that. So I think it's a lot of different things that are gonna shift and change as we progress through time. So it's always like, stay tuned. J.R. Flatter: So we're literally, Lucas and I, fortunate enough to have a global cohort. we're literally talking to the entire world. We interviewed, someone very similar in background and thinking and vision as yourself this morning from Sydney. Australia. so you think about this challenge globally, and it's a global labor force. It's largely virtual. It can be largely virtual, [00:09:00] automated. what do you say to that global audience that's trying to tackle this challenge? Nakisha Hicks: I think that as much as we are different, we're also the same. And I say that because I think that we all are in some ways tackling the same issues, right? Like people are people I. Regardless of where they are, and people ultimately, you know, have innate values. Things like, you know, the importance of their family, importance of their health, their wellbeing, right? regardless of where they are now, what that looks like from a scale perspective may be different from country to country, but those things are still important. and so when you look at, you know, going to Europe and you look at things like maternity leave or parental leave in Europe versus that in the us, like it's different, right? But there's still that fundamental belief that one should be able to take off to bond with their child, right? So it's like, I guess I say all that to say is like, yes, we may be different culturally [00:10:00] in some ways, but a lot of the things are the same. And so it's like, how can we. Because of the fact that we can be such a global workforce because things are so virtual, because you're gonna have this intermingling of folks, right? Like I have the privilege of working a lot with people from different countries, and it's like we still have to be able to bridge that and come and create some kind of community feel around that because we're all are dealing with a lot of the same issues, right? Covid again taught us that. Covid was a worldwide thing, right? And it taught us how the about shutdowns and how to bring people back to work and how to care for people's families and their mental health during these times. So I think it's globally or at, right here at home, I think the issues can be the same. It's just different magnitudes. Lucas Flatter: yeah, and I like that you were talking about. How people are with their families and you know, that, emotional safety and all of that. and we think, leadership has a big role in that with the coaching [00:11:00] culture, having a leader that will allow you to be vulnerable, have those conversations about what you need maybe outside of the workplace, and how they can support that and things. What do you see with leadership? What's a good leadership approach that kind of encourages these, you know, this next generation workforce? Nakisha Hicks: I think that key, it's pivotal that leaders spend a lot of time developing their emotional intelligence. And I say that because the more that you are able to relate, to yourself, first and foremost, right? If we're thinking about first quadrant being self-awareness, I think that then you'll be a better leader to the people in which you are, you're tasked to lead. And so then you'll be able to show empathy. You'll be able to, have those courageous conversations and to create space for those that you lead to have that as well. And you are, in fact, as my grandmother say, the spirits are transferring, right? You would be able to share with [00:12:00] them behaviors and ways of thinking and, moving in in a way that they will be able to emulate those back. And so it's like you are in fact even growing another level, that could be a succession plan later on. So I think emotional intelligence is the key to that. J.R. Flatter: Can we back up a step? You mentioned the tool. If you could just explain that a little more. You said this quadrant said this. Nakisha Hicks: Oh yeah. so we're thinking about, the different quadrants of emotional intelligence. You have self-awareness, self-regulation, relationship management, those different quadrants. And so I always say that it's imperative, I think about my own leadership journey, how. For me to be able to, yes, you want skillset, you wanna be able to do all the things in your job, right? But there are certain things that may that level up your leadership game and when you're able to tap into those things, particularly when it comes to self-awareness, I know that many of us have worked around people who are like, you have no clue. How you are showing up right now, right? You're completely [00:13:00] unaware. People don't like to work for you. Nobody wants to be led by you. Right? It's like, not it, but it's like, but if that person was to take the time to really study how emotional, like they're like different aspects of emotional intelligence, how they're communicating, how they're showing up, right? And then think about how they're regulating themselves. Right. And it creates a culture where, it's emotionally safe, psychologically safe, right? where people can feel good about coming to work. They may not like the work, right? Things may be difficult that day, but they feel good about coming to work because they're safe to do so. They feel seen, they feel heard, and I think that. When you go through those quadrants, when you spend the time as a leader, I spend a lot of time and with my clients working through that because that is the key to it all, especially when you get in a relationship management. We know as leaders, you know, you can go on a long walk by yourself and that's not leading anything, right? Or you can have people follow you. That [00:14:00] in fact is leading. But the only way that you're able to do that is if you can maintain relationships, and that a lot of times comes back to emotional intelligence. Lucas Flatter: how do you get that sense of perspective that you might need as a leader when you know, you might be, you know, in the weeds on something and you don't even realize, like you said, how you're showing up. Nakisha Hicks: You know what? I think that's where you meet a leader above you that's gonna help you to zoom out. Right, because I think sometimes, especially when you're in a workforce where it may be, a lot of vacancies or maybe it's just demands, right? You may have to be in the weeds, but there has to be a time in which you're able to zoom out and come out of the weeds so that you can actually see what's going on around you so that you can be a better leader. And so it may take someone above you to do that. Now, what happens if you are the one at the top, right? That's the question. Sometimes it's like, then you may need an external perspective. You may need someone to come in and say, Hey, hold on. let's take a step back and let's really look at how you're showing up. [00:15:00] Let's really do some audits and some assessments of what's going on in your team, what's going on in, or in and around your purview, right? So I think it's, you gotta have somebody to check you on it. J.R. Flatter: So my c e o, a powerful woman in her own right, reminds me every day that revenue has to exceed expense and competing globally for our work. What's the economic argument? underpinning me being more emotionally intelligent and more equitable. Nakisha Hicks: Well, here's what I'll say. the juice is absolutely worth the squeeze on that one, right? so here's what we know. Turnover costs. Every time somebody leaves an organization, it costs, when people, report out sick or take leave, it costs an organization. Right. And so to me, if we were to drill down and ask sometimes some of these people, like, why do you [00:16:00] leave? If we look at exit surveys, right? You know what we see, it's not always because people don't necessarily leave because of money. What do they leave for? They leave a lot of times because of the relationship with their leader. They leave because of the culture. They leave because they're not being developed. That is why people leave. So it's like you can plug the hole right with the people and the money coming out by sometimes investing in that development that needs to happen for leaders so that they can then, in fact, lead the people, keep the people. And actually grow the people, right? Because also we know that when you're getting ready to, let's keep it all the way real. When you're getting ready to have a promotional type opportunity where there's a new position, it's actually cheaper to hire from within than to go outside and bring somebody in. Right. We know that, right? That's why people leave organizations and go outside to go up higher because you can make more money when you go out sometimes. And so if we're making an [00:17:00] economic argument, I think that's the argument. J.R. Flatter: You're singing a song. I mean, it's exactly the thesis of this entire podcast that building and sustaining a coaching culture drives up retention, drives down recruitment costs, training costs. Once you train someone, they're trained. If you have to retrain someone, you start at zero. and we're all about work, family, self, and you know, what does that balance? What should it look like and what am I doing as a leader to make sure it's in place that we're talking to the Falcon Walk on the walk. Lucas Flatter: you had brought up AI and I don't know if you know you're talking to a huge nerd, but that gets me excited. So, but I also think about, you know, technology from, you know, an economic perspective or an industry perspective. It's making something more efficient and usually eliminating jobs. And I think that there's an anxiety where I. You almost feel like we are getting ready to replace [00:18:00] these jobs, you know? So how would you respond to that anxiety? What would you say? Nakisha Hicks: Here's what I would say, and I even think about this, from a business owner standpoint, right? there were, a lot of times when I could have hired a person to do some things, but when I'm looking, thinking about it, I. Yes, I could hire a person and yes, they could do these things, but I could also automate some of these things, right? I can allow some piece of technology to do those things for me. The question then becomes, well, what happens with that person? That allows me then to re-skill that person and to think about things like, how can I, increase my reach? How can I, have better client delivery? How can I do those things? Right? So if we're bringing it into the workplace, it's like, Okay. Maybe there are aspects of jobs that can be automated or done through some form of technology. But that doesn't necessarily mean that a person is gonna be replaced. That means that now we can take that [00:19:00] person and we can upskill that person, And we can maybe bring, in a skillset that person didn't have. I'm just crazy enough to think that we can train people, right? And we can grow people, right. And then that allows us to think about strategically the, outcomes of the business. Where do we want the business to go? Maybe that is a thing that we need to really be thinking about in order to grow and scale businesses the way we want to. And so it's not so to speak, to be top heavy and have a bunch of like leaders, you know? But it is like, how are we growing people? In a way that we can in fact, grow the business to sustain the growth of the people, Lucas Flatter: Absolutely. J.R. Flatter: Yeah, we just, brought two new people on the team yesterday and I had that exact conversation with them that they were hired for their attitude and ethics, and we're gonna train them to do what the organization needs them to do. huge, mind shift of hire for culture, but you know, going back to,What is the culture and you know, what is [00:20:00] actually, what do we need to agree on to work together? And Lucas and I try to keep that list short and crisp and existential actually do, is this a I must have or is it a preference that I have? we could talk about unconscious bias and preferences and all that. what are your thoughts on. Culture and how do I build this culture you're describing. Nakisha Hicks: Yeah, I'll say, one thing that I often speak about is when people are unhappy in their work and or when an employer is unhappy with an employee, it's often because of a value misalignment. It's something that the employee has as a value. It's something that the employer has a value and they're off. And so I think when you're thinking about building culture, I think it's really being thoughtful about the values and then you build out strategy based upon the values. You hire people [00:21:00] based upon the values. I think you also have to communicate those values well. Right? You have to communicate and define them Well, and I think that when then you are selecting people to join you, to what you said earlier, it's like you're hiring for mindset or attitude, right? It's like that's something that we value and we hope that you value that too, right? And it's being able to say that this is how it's demonstrated here. And I think that is how you in fact, can flip culture. and make it one where people are happy to be at work and that an organization actually thrives and not just survived. Lucas Flatter: so going back to, you know, upskilling and things like that do you think there's a tendency when, and going back to the efficiency topic, that there's a tendency for that efficiency to go towards, oh, this affects our bottom line and therefore it's not worth up training that person or, Where's, and I guess we touched upon it [00:22:00] earlier, but how is that R O I on in this particular example? Nakisha Hicks: I think, yeah. Here's what I'll tell you. I think it's based on the organization. Organization. It's what that organization sees as important. And quite honestly, if money is the motivator and not understanding that the resource, some is the people sometimes, most time I think that's where you're gonna have an issue of what's an what, what is the r o i and what's not, right? You'll see oftentimes when you have those organizations that are very people centered, The question of whether or not we upskill somebody and what's the R O I on? There is a very small question, but the people that are just like, we need to produce, we need this thing. 'cause we understand that revenue, we know we need to make money. Yes we do, but we don't necessarily understand that by investing in people, we actually invest in the company. when we don't understand that, I think that then becomes what's the r o I. What's in it for me? [00:23:00] And I think it's a harder lift to under to explain that and to get organizations to understand it. So I think it's all based upon how the organization looks at. Lucas Flatter: Yeah, I like that. R o i, not necessarily in terms of dollars, but you know, how much knowledge does your company have or how. Is it to tackle a problem? I like that. J.R. Flatter: So we've talked a lot about the organizational responsibilities. if you're talking to an individual and they see. A disparity or on their own or at an organizational level, what can they do? Nakisha Hicks: Well, that's a good question. I think, If you see something, you say something right? That's kind of always been my motto. And even when I've had, people working for me, so I was like, if you see something, you say something. but when you say it, the hope is that you say it with a solution with it or a potential solution. Now that only works though, right? When you have an environment that allows your voice to be heard. And so the [00:24:00] hope is that, In the event that somebody sees something and they're able to say something, that it does in fact make an impact. Now, if you're in an environment where that is not the case, where it's like, yeah, okay, thank you for your opinion, but we don't pay you for that, right? Then I think that's something that you just say duly noted, and you think about, is this an alignment with what I value? And then I think it's a decision for that individual at that point. J.R. Flatter: So, we use a lot of tools in our practice and. If you're working with, an organization, what are some tools I can use to go after what you're describing, either to discover who I am or how we might solve these challenges? Nakisha Hicks: the biggest tool, and it's gonna sound corny to a certain extent, is conversation, right? I'm a firm believer that if you have conversations with people, they will tell you everything you need to know, and then some. So I think first of all, it's conversations and not all of the, necessarily the disc assessments. And [00:25:00] those are great strength finders. Those are great. I'm not saying they're not, but sometimes I think it's good old conversations sometimes, right? Because you'll get to the actual root or the heart of the person. I also think that other tools that are necessary are things like making sure that everybody is speaking the same language, right? And so sometimes the tool is let's have a common vocabulary and let's have common definitions that we agree upon so that when we're having these conversations, it's not foreign to you. It's not foreign to me. We get it and we can move forward there. I think education, it's always something like bringing, how are you bringing education into this space? Because I can't just tell you what I think you should know. I should be able to show it to you. I should be able to give you a resource. To be able to do these things and to do them well. So I think those are some of the tools. J.R. Flatter: It's like we've met before. Because you're saying the same things that Lucas and I talk about. It's all about conversation. Yeah. We talk about conversation with self in a journal, [00:26:00] conversations with significant others 'cause you're on this journey together. Conversations with other leaders, other coaches, Lucas Flatter: when you think about, like in the HR role, you almost need to codify some of these things and document them, and is it more difficult to. Kind of build these kinds of things into policy where it's, you know, you need to be emotionally intelligent and care about people like codifying that, that you need to care. Nakisha Hicks: I think that it's difficult sometimes to put those things again into words where people don't understand what the words mean, right? So if you're gonna create, say, for example, a code of conduct policy, you could incorporate very well, could incorporate some emotional intelligence type stuff in there, right? that can be done. But I think rather than put it in some policy, That somebody just reviews signs off on and it goes in their file that they got it right and if something [00:27:00] happens, we can pull it out later and say, you signed this policy. I think it should be a part of their development plan. Right, which oftentimes you have so many organizations and you probably have talked with some of them, that they're, or they don't have individual development plans. They don't have development plans at all for their staff. They may have performance evaluation documents, but they don't have development plans. And so, I think that's where it lives, not necessarily in policy. Lucas Flatter: Yeah, that makes sense. It's like the document is the development plan. And that proves that you care, you know enough to want to invest in me. J.R. Flatter: So, my last question, and Lucas always gets the last question, when do I know as a leader growing organization that I need a fractional chief human resource officer, or I need human resource help? Nakisha Hicks: I think you should know that from the beginning, right? I think when it's more than just you, right? I think that's when you're gonna need help. J.R. Flatter: So if I'm more than a one person show Nakisha Hicks: When it's more than a one [00:28:00] person show, I think you're gonna need help. And what I will say to that is the level of help is going to change as you bring on more people. Right. When you're a party of two looks a little different than when you're a bar party of two 50. Right? And I also think, the levels in which you're bringing people in, So if you're gonna bring in a bunch of leaders at one time, you know, director of this and see vice, president of this, whatever, a little different. But when I start to bring in different levels of staff, need somebody. J.R. Flatter: Yeah. Hey, you bring a penins point because we, when we consult, with other businesses and entrepreneurs, I tell them, if you're gonna have more than 10 people, The thing you love doing, you're gonna be the c e o of that, and you're not gonna be doing that thing you love. So you need to decide, do you wanna be a c e O or do you wanna be a coach? Do you wanna be, yeah, important to differentiate those. All right, Lucas, take us home. Lucas Flatter: Okay. so [00:29:00] thinking about, you know, getting to know somebody and their motivations and what makes them tick. I tend to go back to hobbies or interests like that. for example, our c e o is getting into crochet, which I think it's providing her value outside of just, you know, the act of doing it. is there anything in your life like that, that you wanna share with the audience? Nakisha Hicks: I paint, right? It started off as, it was like you go to those sips and strokes type deal, right? And I was like, oh, some of the paintings, the first ones didn't make it in the house. They stayed in the garage, the right, the good gallery. But, I paint and I paint because it allows me to just focus in on the canvas. I get to be creative. I'm not a big fan of those pre-sketch things. I like to actually be able to put it together. and so it allows my brain to kind of shut off from all the other stuff and just kind of come into a [00:30:00] different space that allows me to be creative. So I paint.