Leadership as a Behavior: Unpacking a Speak-up Culture | with Stephen Shedletzky

Building a Coaching Culture - #93: Leadership as a Behavior: Unpacking a Speak-up Culture | with Stephen Shedletzky === Hey. Welcome back, everybody. I'm JR Flatter, and here with my cohost, Lucas. Lucas Flatter [00:00:43]: Hello. J.R. Flatter [00:00:44]: And as always, we are building a coaching culture. And our distinguished guest today is Steven, better known as Shed Shedletsky. So just to remind everyone and and to remind you, Shed, we're talking to leaders of complex organizations about The 21st century labor market, this global virtual labor market that, you As you begin your career and looking forward, the technologies, the processes, all of that's gonna change. Everyone knows it. You know, Moore's law is dead. It's not every 2 years. It's like every 2 minutes, the technology seems to be replacing itself. And so If you would, just jump in here. J.R. Flatter [00:01:28]: Got your bio. Got your book. But it's always best to have the distinguished guest introduce themselves and, Tell us about the great things that you're up to. Stephen Shedletzky [00:01:36]: Thank you so much. Let's see if I can earn that badge of distinguished Cheryl. I'll try to behave into it. Like you mentioned, Shed, Steven Chicletski. And I just came out with, with my first book Couple months ago, October 3rd, it came out, Speak Up Culture, when leaders truly listen, people step up. And I, you know, I grew up with a stutter, so I know what it feels like to be voiceless. And I've been on a myriad of teams, both parts of teams as well as serving other teams as as clients. And just seeing this difference between And the spectrum of teams that have a speak up culture where it is safe and worth it to speak up, and then the other end where maybe it was once Safe and worth it to to speak up, but a change in leadership or all of a sudden you speak up and you share an idea, concern, feedback, Mistake, whatever it might be, and all of a sudden, you're the problem as opposed to someone who is trying to be a solution or trying to help. Stephen Shedletzky [00:02:32]: So I've witnessed that. I've experienced that, and I just want more of the former than the latter. I want more organizations and teams Where people use their voice and people speak up, and it's worth it. J.R. Flatter [00:02:43]: Yeah. It's such an interesting topic. I love that that line. Recently hired a couple of folks that, been part of our orientation is you get to sit down with the founder and talk to the founder. Literally, this new employee was sitting next to me. It was live. And we were looking at the screen, and I made a comment, and and she said, wow. Now that I have the authorization to speak. J.R. Flatter [00:03:08]: And I I it just set me back in my chair because that's counter to our culture. I would have thought somewhere along the hiring process, She would have been told, yeah. We want you to speak. You're encouraged to speak. Your voice is wanted and needed. Yet here she was showing up Thinking day 1, I'm not allowed to talk. So as the the chairman and the founder, What do we do to make that not happen? So I think a couple of things. Stephen Shedletzky [00:03:38]: I mean, you already mentioned half of the equation, which is encourage. You know, I the the other thing also I'll talk about there's a virtuous cycle of encourage and reward when it comes to creating a speak up culture. The other is I equate culture to a pickle jar. So you can take a world class cucumber that is hardworking, talented, ethical. There's such a thing. Put it in some awful pickle brine, a toxic deleterious culture, and you get an awful pickle. But it's no fault to the cucumber. We have to mind the brine. Stephen Shedletzky [00:04:08]: We have to look at the environment that that person is in. Similarly, and this seems more like the case of this new hire, is they've been conditioned Through their experiences with previous work or with authority previously, whether that's family or teachers or previous bosses or or previous Cultures, work or otherwise, around what it means to speak up and challenge authority. Is that something where there's a green light, a yellow light, or a red light? And so we need to know that even if we, as a team and as leaders, wish to proliferate the speak up culture where people feel that it's safe and worth it to As new folks join or as folks change teams inside of a large complex organization, There is still a cultural indoctrination. There is still, this is how we treat each other. And then the strength of a culture is how how close is that gap between what's said and what's done. And then, yeah, I mean, everyone enters into a culture with sort of a emotional backpack on of how they've been conditioned to behave previously. And as they come into this new one, it's like, no. Like, we not only do we want to hear your voice, we expect it. Stephen Shedletzky [00:05:22]: That's part of what it means to be part of this culture is, of course, it's done with tact and respect and human decency and Situational awareness and emotional intelligence, and we'll coach you and help you behave into that. But it's both it's a virtuous cycle of encouraging folks to speak And then once they do, reward them, especially if they're sharing bad news or hard things to hear or they're disagreeing or offering a dissenting point of view. So long as their intent is to serve, we must reward that behavior. You know? And especially for the most senior person, if someone disagrees with you, How does that go? You know? Because if if all of a sudden, you're like, no, you're wrong, that's the last time You're definitely gonna hear an idea from them for a good chunk of time and from the people who just witnessed that that as well. So encourage and reward. J.R. Flatter [00:06:15]: And and you reminded me of something about orientation. We teach, and hopefully, we are demonstrating Orientation is not only an HR function, it's an executive function. And where is the executive involved in the orientation, the creation, and the delivery. Stephen Shedletzky [00:06:38]: You know, I'll say I'm not gonna say leader. For anyone in a position of authority who thinks that the responsibility of culture is on HR, they are sorely mistaken. Culture is not outsourced or insourced to to HR. Culture is lived and breathed by the people who work at the organization. And the more influence one has in that culture, the more that their individual values and behavior impacts that culture and the health of it. Lucas Flatter [00:07:04]: So I really like, that perspective of creating the environment where these kinds of things are more likely to thrive and And, you know, reveal themselves. From the individual level, if I'm somebody that might be more reserved or introspective, How do you create an environment for yourself where maybe you encourage yourself to be more out there and outspoken? Stephen Shedletzky [00:07:32]: Yeah. So so it's such a great question, Lucas. I mean, speaking up doesn't necessarily mean loud in front of lots of people Or even on social media. Speak up can be in a 1 on 1 interaction. Speak up can also be written. Like, it doesn't need to be verbal. And for some of us, we might be more extroverted and sort of speak to think and are better on the spot than others of us who Are more introspective, perhaps more introverted, aren't necessarily as good in our feet, but it doesn't mean that we don't have valuable contributions. It just takes like a good bottle of wine. Stephen Shedletzky [00:08:05]: It takes a moment to sorta breathe and situate. So a couple things. I mean, one, The reason we have teams is for that partnership, is for someone who's more introspective to partner with someone who might be more Reflexive or intuitive or extroverted. And so long as they're aligned, they can make a great team. The other is How, as leaders, do we acknowledge the diversity of the folks in the room such that, hey. That was a great meeting. Let's not make a decision yet And wait until it's Thursday today. Let's wait until Monday because I wanna give this conversation, because it's so important, Time to breathe, and I'm aware that 40% of the people in this room are introverted. Stephen Shedletzky [00:08:50]: And so you likely have thoughts. You just don't. You can't articulate them yet. Right? One of my favorite things to do is I I used to have a colleague that I worked very closely with at a previous team who was introverted, and it was in his personality to stay more quiet. But because he was staying more quiet, didn't mean that he wasn't thinking. He was always thinking. And if you didn't know him, you would maybe make the assumption that he was disengaged, but he wasn't. He was thinking. Stephen Shedletzky [00:09:18]: And so my favorite thing to do, and because I was so close with him, is by about minute 43 of a 60 minute meeting or 22 of a 30 minute meeting, whatever it was. Like, if if we were, you know, 2 thirds of the way in and we hadn't heard his his voice yet, I just go I just went, pause. David, where you at? What are you thinking? That was his name, David. And because we had sufficient relationship, I wasn't putting him on the spot. I was, I know you're thinking. And every time he would share something, that would sorta shift the conversation because he was observing and thinking, Whereas someone like me who's more comfortable being extroverted and going with with the flow and speaking up more more intuitively. So, yeah, I think it's what's what's the container and environment we're designing such that we aren't Intentionally or unintentionally building extroverted favored cultures, which I think most organizations do. And how can we create Space and pause for folks who have great contributions, but they might not be as eloquent immediately. Stephen Shedletzky [00:10:27]: So those are a few thoughts. I'm not sure if that No. Absolutely. Is as eloquent as can be, but it's it's around space and awareness of the diversity of the styles of the folks on your team. J.R. Flatter [00:10:37]: No. I love that. It's I continue to be surprised at the number of executive leaders who are introverts, Very successful executive leaders who are introverts. Cocktail parties exhaust them. Being that person That everyone's eyes are on when they walk into a room is uncomfortable to them. You put it at somewhere around 40%. I think that's a conservative estimate. Stephen Shedletzky [00:11:05]: Yeah. I it's I'm getting that number from Susan Cain's book, Quiet. She said the that the overall population, 40% introverted. That's a dated stat, so it might not be relevant. But I also think, like, there's extroverts, there's introverts, and then there's is it ambivert where it's contextual. Lencioni, J.R. Flatter [00:11:24]: I think, coined the or maybe it was pink. I forget who where I read that. But yeah. Stephen Shedletzky [00:11:29]: Oh, it was one of 2 one of those 2 guys are probably referencing somebody else's research. Let's face it. But It's a it's a good term. But, JR, the thing I wanna point out is so I'm extroverted. I gain energy from people. There's a myth that as soon as you label someone or someone is introvert, there's a myth that they're not social. No. No. Stephen Shedletzky [00:11:51]: No. No. No. You're there's very social introverts who even are fine in the spotlight. It's around where you gain energy from. And extroverts gain energy. Like, they wake up with 0 coins. And by the end of a day with social interaction, they have 10 coins. Stephen Shedletzky [00:12:07]: Whereas introverts start the day with 10 coins, and they spend those coins on social interaction. When it comes to leadership, I actually prefer an introverted leader than an extroverted leader. And the reason is is because and and I'm extroverted. And the trouble I have is sometimes I speak up because I enjoy it. Like, I like talking. And then it begs the question, am I speaking up To serve, or am I speaking up to be seen? And I'm more at risk of speaking up to Dominant because I like the sound of my own voice sometimes. Right? Introverted leaders, when they speak up, I know that they're doing it because they feel called to. That there's something that they see or feel, They're like, this is uncomfortable for me, but I'm gonna do it because I feel called to lead or to serve. Stephen Shedletzky [00:12:55]: So I actually anyone who Wants to be a leader. I always question for what reason. And if it's because I wanna be in charge, I like the spotlight, I like power, I like status, You're doing it for all the wrong reasons, and that's likely to be a destructive leader. But if it's I feel called to, I don't feel comfortable doing it, But someone needs to do something about this, and I wanna be someone. I realize I have agency. That's the type of leader that J.R. Flatter [00:13:21]: I'm like, oh, I wanna follow you. So as a coach, one of the things we teach and and and use is, what we would call a whisper. And I heard you whisper earlier on when you said leader, and then you said, no. No. No. A person in the position of authority. So I'm I'm I'm interested to hear you explore that differentiation a bit. Stephen Shedletzky [00:13:44]: Well, so so I distinguish between So uppercase l leadership, you have the the the title. You are in a position of leadership, Which doesn't mean you're a leader. You just have the title and the authority. Leadership is in the behavior. So my favorite quote on leadership Comes from a dear friend of mine, Rich De Viney, who's a retired US seal and wrote the book, The Attributes, around human attributes rather than skills. And Rich says of leadership that leaders aren't born, leaders aren't even made. Leaders are chosen based upon the way that they behave. Now sure. Stephen Shedletzky [00:14:20]: Some of us are born with some of the innate attributes that lend themselves toward leadership, Courage, humility, authenticity, service orientation, compassion, empathy, decisiveness, accountability. That's kind of the soup of what it means to be a leader. And some of us are born with with more of those attributes than others. But just because you're born with it doesn't mean that you're you have a hall pass and you're a leader. You have to develop it. Always, leaders are developed. Now just because you develop as a leader then doesn't give you a hall pass that you're always a leader. You need to earn it And behave into it every day, you know, and no one can label themselves as a good leader. Stephen Shedletzky [00:15:00]: No one can label themselves as a good parent Or a good listener or a good friend that is bestowed upon those who know you. If the people who follow you say that's my leader And I believe that, you know, they call you a leader, that matters a lot more. If you observe my parenting or my wife of my parenting or even best, My kids of my parenting call me a good parent. Okay. I'm doing something right up until that point, and I gotta keep doing it right For the rest of the day and tomorrow and the days that that come. So leadership is not a position. Leadership is a disposition. Leadership is in our behavior. Stephen Shedletzky [00:15:36]: And if you have the title but do not behave as such, you do not lead, you're a driver or you're a boss hole or you're leader s Hitch IT, you know? J.R. Flatter [00:15:46]: A boss hole. I'm stealing that one. Stephen Shedletzky [00:15:48]: Go for it. I I stole it from somebody else. I stole it from my friend Nikki. So one of my favorite phrases of leadership, JR, which is so funny, he used the word whisper, that as a leader, your whisper is a shout and your tiptoes are stomps. And so there's uppercase l leaders. When you have the title, we expect you to behave as a leader because you have the title. There's also lowercase l leaders Where you do not have the title, but because of your behavior, you have the people. You have followers, people who follow your lead. Stephen Shedletzky [00:16:22]: So, yeah, leadership is a behavior. You can have the title, but not lead, which means you're an authority or a driver or a boss hole. Lucas Flatter [00:16:30]: I'm curious. We've gone over a couple examples of, like, creating the environment, The safety that encourages people to speak up. Can we go back to rewards? How do you Make sure that the reward you're providing is, you know, motivating to each individual. Stephen Shedletzky [00:16:53]: Love that. So a couple things. I mean, 1, I wanna define what a reward is as it relates to speaking up because it's not necessarily extrinsic. Over time, it could be in the form of promotion or raise or bonus or a statue made in one's honor put out in front of corporate headquarters. It's more likely in the moment to be intrinsic and consistent. So a reward when it comes to speaking up is, Lucas, thank you. You know, JR, I understood that that take courage, or I make up the story that took courage. That was not easy for you for you to say thank you, you know. Stephen Shedletzky [00:17:26]: Reward could also be we didn't implement your idea, but here's why. It's closing the loop of letting someone know the impact, Positive, negative, or neutral, and the reason why. So reward could also be, oh, that's really hard to hear. Give me 5 minutes. I need to scream into a pillow. Alright. Now let's have this this this conversation. It's giving people airtime and space And letting them know that their contribution is acknowledged worthwhile and keep it coming. Stephen Shedletzky [00:17:55]: Then you form the virtuous cycle of encourage, reward, encourage, reward, encourage, reward. The other thing you make me think of, Lucas, is the difference between the golden rule and the platinum rule. So the golden rule I'm currently teaching to my 4a half year old who's in kindergarten and a little bit more to my 8a half or my 7a half year old who's in grade 2, Treat others the way you wish wish to be treated. Basic respect. You know? Now that's fine for kindergarten. But as you become a young adult and an adult, It is not okay to simply treat people the way you wish to be treated because it lacks empathy. So platinum rule is treating others the way they wish to be treated, Which requires you to build a relationship with them, requires you to understand what motivates them, what's important, what what's meaningful to them. And, you know, Let's also face it in the tough economic climate and uncertainty that we're in. Stephen Shedletzky [00:18:49]: Sometimes we can't Reward people extrinsically all the time or to the degree that we wish we could. And it's my belief and hope that people are paid enough And fairly and equitably, but it's also around what else matters to them intrinsically and even extrinsically Around their present and their future. Is it sending meals home because they're it's a household with 2 working parents? Is it talking about their career goals And setting them up with appropriate mentors. Is it more flexibility? Like, what can we do to flex into what's meaningful and motivating to them? And there are tons of tools with this. There's Languages of appreciation are love languages. There's strengths finder. There's, you know, Myers Briggs and DISC. Like, all these tools that are windows and help, can help us treat people as they wish to be treated, not as we wish to be treated, which requires a leadership flex. Stephen Shedletzky [00:19:42]: So platinum rule for the win. Yeah. J.R. Flatter [00:19:44]: I love the the I love both of them, the golden rule and the platinum rule. I'm looking at your quote, when the human in me sees the human in you, we make progress. This is something Lucas and I have been working playing with for a while now, and that is this relationship between servant leadership To a purpose higher than yourself in an atmosphere of love. I know that's something that here even this far into 21st century, We're uncomfortable talking about. Yeah. I'm not. Well, no. Neither are Lucas and I. Stephen Shedletzky [00:20:17]: Yeah. But outside of this conversation, folks folks might Most J.R. Flatter [00:20:20]: of the world doesn't begin to even think about love in a loving culture until after yes. Yeah. I'll join that team because I know Shed, and I know he's gonna take care of me. He can give me opportunities to grow. How do we get that message out to the world that There is love on the other side of yes. You don't have to be you're part of our tribe still in some way. I'd love to hear your thoughts on that relationship. That's being very human. J.R. Flatter [00:20:50]: Right? And we try to be as human as human human to human as possible. Stephen Shedletzky [00:20:54]: So a few things come to mind around love and limits, around some myths, around psychological safety and a speak of culture, and also what What an organization is and isn't. An organization is not a family unless it's a family business. J.R. Flatter [00:21:12]: No. I'm laughing because We just did our off-site last week. And for 21, 22 years, I've been saying we have a familial culture. Well, now we're so big that, you know, people with my last name or my DNA are a tiny, tiny portion. And so I've been forbidden To say we have a familial culture and we have a championship culture or we have a Stephen Shedletzky [00:21:36]: Or a team or a community. So that's a interesting context where you'd you literally need to say, listen. Here are the facts. There is family in this business. Fact. Now it is our responsible responsibility as the family to treat each other fairly, to also note when we're putting on Dad or granddad or son or whatever hat and when we're taking it off and to be appropriate with that and to ensure That the family isn't given unreasonable preferential treatment now unless it's a family business. And, literally, everyone on the team is Family, you know. But let's face it, then there's people who marry into the family. Stephen Shedletzky [00:22:19]: Like, it's it's it's complicated. But I think that we can say That an organization is a team or a community. And I don't yet know any better analogy to effective leadership than what it means to be an effective parent. Now love still has limits and expectations and boundaries. Psychological safety isn't absent of accountability. It is both Psychological safety and accountability. It's both. And to say to to someone, I love and care for you so much and believe in you so much That it hurts me to see you wasting your potential or it hurts to witness you behaving outside of our value set Even if you're getting high performance or high numbers. Stephen Shedletzky [00:23:01]: So love doesn't mean a hall pass. Love still has expectations. My love for my children is unconditional. You know? They were born with a baseline of love. Right? My love with my wife, that's conditional. Let's just call it, like, it's it's based on conditions of behaviors, you know? Like, I don't cheat, you don't cheat. We are open in communication open in our communications and honest with with each other. There are conditions, and if they aren't met, You know, we need to have a different conversation. Stephen Shedletzky [00:23:36]: The love of my children, they've gotta do a like, I can't envision a future in which I don't love them Even if they do things that are against our family values, it is still my responsibility as their father To attempt to lead them even if I realize that what they need is beyond my capabilities as a parent, Meaning, you need to go to this program or whatever it might be. So in cultures of love, it's not void of conflict, tension, Hard conversations, helping someone grow. In fact, I think that's that's the responsibility of a culture of love Is us as leaders see your potential, and it's we're doing everything we can to see if you can see it too and behave into it. J.R. Flatter [00:24:27]: Yeah. You're sort of you're indirectly defining coaching in those couple of sentences, because that's exactly when Lucas and I Work with others to create a coaching culture and sustain a coaching culture. You're loved here. We're interested in your growth. We're gonna provide you opportunities to grow. Lucas Flatter [00:24:44]: So I love the serendipity of these conversations because you're mentioning your 4 year old and and how leadership and parenthood kind of align with each other. And I just, last night, had a conversation with my four and a half year old son, and I was just trying to Okay. We need to talk about your behavior. But I was saying, you know, this is a safe place to Get in trouble. You're at home. Like, nothing bad is gonna happen. You know, I'm not scary. I'm not yelling. Lucas Flatter [00:25:17]: I'm not, you know, being violent or anything. And I was thinking, like, it's the accountability that that he's afraid of, I think, or at least apprehensive of Because I don't think it's that the environment's not safe and conducive. So I guess, Is there any way to kind of make the accountability more approachable, or is that always gonna have some friction? Stephen Shedletzky [00:25:47]: You're saying, like, for someone to step into owning their accountability. Is that right? Lucas Flatter [00:25:52]: Or just, Yeah. Not avoiding the conversation, for example. Like, oh, no. We need to talk about this. Like, let's let's get it out of the way so we can move forward. J.R. Flatter [00:26:03]: I mean, I have a couple Stephen Shedletzky [00:26:04]: thoughts and and a and a story from my colleague on my team with his son. So, I mean, one of the first things that I strive to do is, as a parent and as a leader, When does my word not match my actions? And so if I expect accountability, I have to display accountability myself. So I just did this last night with my daughter where she's now seven and a half. She'll be 8 in the spring. And I said to her, I I need to apologize to you because I've become impatient, and I've raised my voice the past couple of mornings As I'm trying to get us out out the door. Now the reason I am is because time rush and also I have to ask you 2 or 3 or 4 times to do the same thing, which is frustrating. I apologize for my behavior, though. I'm working on it. Stephen Shedletzky [00:26:55]: Can you also work on, You know, having ample time and space, listening and having mindfulness of time. Right? So it's shared shared accountability. So my head of operations, Alejandro, he has a almost 4 year old son. I think he's 3a half. And, He woke up this morning to his wife saying, what are you doing to to her three and a half year old son? And as it turned out, you know, they're expecting a second child. They took out some books From the from the library on being a big brother. And whether it was a microbe aggression or just testing boundaries or whatever, He was ripping some of the pages. Now this is a library book. Stephen Shedletzky [00:27:32]: Right? So, you know, he's a 3a half year old kid. He's testing boundaries. Who knows? Like, Who knows if he's revolting to becoming a big brother or whatever it is? But now, there's an opportunity to teach a lesson, Which is there are consequences for your actions. First of all, we don't do that. Second of all, we will go back to the library, and we will apologize. And 3rd, we were already planning to give some of your toys because you have too many of them and donate them to charity for the for the holidays. We're still gonna do that, and we're gonna add on $20 worth more of toys that you will get to pick, that we will sell And pay the library back for that book. So there's no screaming. Stephen Shedletzky [00:28:16]: There's no yelling, but there's a teaching that there's there's an accountability. But as well, what I strive to do is when I wanna know the truth from my kids, I say, this is a time where we're rewarding the truth. It's not about being perfect. I need to know what actually happened, and you'll get in trouble if you lie. I can't promise you won't get in trouble if you tell the truth, But it'll be far far more reasonable if if you tell the truth now. So love and limits. Lucas Flatter [00:28:43]: That's awesome. Thanks. Yeah. I think that that Display an example of, you know, showing your own accountability. I think that's something I'm gonna take away. Stephen Shedletzky [00:28:52]: And it's always I mean, My favorite attribute of a leader is humility, and, you know, it's not charisma. And by the way, you don't need to be charismatic to be a leader at all. You don't even need to be warm. You can be cold and grumpy, but you have to care for people. That's a requisite. Humility is my favorite Because a humble leader will go, what am I doing to cause this behavior? Like, what's the part that I'm playing here? And who might I also be able to ask to get feedback on what's the role that I'm playing? It doesn't abdicate responsibility or accountability for others, But the leaders who look to take ownership and then some over their part, that's a leader I wanna follow. So, You know, Lucas, I'm just thinking of what are the number of times I know I'm reflecting on my own experience as a parent that I I get pissed off at my kids, but I'm like, it's kinda my doing. You know? I'm not setting them up for success. Stephen Shedletzky [00:29:52]: I'm frustrated. I'm putting in the time pressure. I'm tired. I'm whatever. You know? It's like my my friend this morning used the analogy of, am am I playing the the video game of life on easy mode or on hard mode? And when I'm playing it on hard mode, it's I didn't get sleep. I did didn't give them warning. You know? I'm dismissing their emotion. You know? So I think I don't get it right all the time. Stephen Shedletzky [00:30:16]: But anytime, you know, I sorta get pissed off, and I'm like, I think my response is bigger than the facts of this Situation. It's like, yep. I have a part to play here. J.R. Flatter [00:30:26]: So our tradition is Lucas gets asked the last question, and I just wanna Get you ready for it because it's usually off the wall. So this will be my last question. Every once in a while, I hear your accent sneak out. And, you're talking about leadership culture and speaking up. Lucas and I teach a global cohort. I'm of the mindset leadership's transcendental, that You can lead in different cultures, but as you said, little l, big l, leadership's relatively the same across cultures. I'd love to hear you talk about that, see your thoughts about global, cultural, different tribes. Stephen Shedletzky [00:31:03]: Yeah. I I think The I I would agree with you. The basic fundamental desires and needs of human beings as a species, I think are transcendental around belonging, mattering, respect, autonomy. You know? How it shows up in different cultures might might be different. You know, one of the interesting things as it relates to a speak up culture Is in some cultures, you're very much taught, and I'm thinking, you know, in in Asian cultures as an example. Like, the Korean language In and of itself has hierarchy and authority built into it. Right? Which is fine for your father-in-law, But when it comes to an ethical concern at work, we have a responsibility to create cultures where people feel safe to speak up Even if it challenges authority, that to me is how an organization operate at it operates at its best. I mean, Malcolm Gladwell wrote about this in outliers Where there were more incidences of safety issues on Korean Airlines planes because at most, A pilot sitting in the right seat would only suggest to the captain that maybe they should consider checking deicing as opposed to saying, captain, There's ice on the wing we shouldn't take off. Stephen Shedletzky [00:32:23]: Right? So authority in that cultural nuance is fine for your father-in-law. Not really okay when it's a more senior pilot, but you're responsible for the lives of 200, 300 folks or whatever it might be. So Things can show up and manifest in slightly different ways, but I think the basic human needs on the whole are consistent inside of a speak up culture. We can offend someone, and it's okay. So if we're in a new culture and we step on toes Because in our North American way, we do something different than whatever their way is. There should be enough relationship for us to coach one another and meet in the middle. So, yeah, I would agree with you that there's far more in common across our our cultures. How can we coexist and still honoring another's culture While honoring ours as well. J.R. Flatter [00:33:16]: And even a step further, we hear a lot of, it's a marine thing you wouldn't understand. It's a a cop thing you wouldn't understand. It's, well, yeah, I do because we're all of the same species. I love, it it it always comes back to that, the characteristics of the human species, irrespective of Big culture or microcosm culture. Stephen Shedletzky [00:33:42]: And, again, culture is a pickle jar. So you you could take Someone from the army or someone from the navy and and put them in in the marines. And if they're a good fit for the marines, they can shift and change, maybe. To finish the story of Korean Airline, so they fixed it. And the way that they fixed it is through training as well as They no longer speak Korean in the cockpit. They speak American English because there's no undertones of formality and hierarchy In American English. So they've they literally changed the pickle brine of that cockpit. So, yeah, people are malleable for better or for worse. Lucas Flatter [00:34:20]: So I've been thinking, lately, I I have this friend that's an artist, and He's been giving me, you know, his tips for, you know, 15, 20 years. And I'm also interested in art, and I'm J.R. Flatter [00:34:35]: an artist, but not professionally. So he's more advanced than I Lucas Flatter [00:34:35]: am, and he has been for Personally, so he's more advanced than I am, and he has been for quite some time. He gives me advice sometimes that I don't even Recognize the value in until 10 years, 5 years later. And then I I think, oh, he told me this a long time ago. So have you learned something either, you know, from advice or from your research or reading that, You know, just recently has clicked, and what kind of perspective you have now on it that you didn't have before? Stephen Shedletzky [00:35:08]: Can I go really personal? J.R. Flatter [00:35:10]: Absolutely. You would encourage that. Stephen Shedletzky [00:35:13]: So I'm I, I'm culturally Jewish. So I put I'd like to say that I put the ish in Jew because I'm not religious, but I identify as a Jewish person. I come from a lineage of having, holocaust survivors in in my family as well as victims of the of the holocaust. My grandfather fought in 1948 in the Israeli Arab war, not by choice. He hopped off of a a a refugee boat and was handed a rifle and said, Fight for your survival again. He wasn't a politician. He wasn't a military leader. He was fighting for his family and to survive. Stephen Shedletzky [00:35:49]: And, You know, you mentioned JR previously the the quote of when the human in me sees the human in you, we make progress. And The meaning and importance of that quote as it relates to coexistence is so viscerally important to me. And I I knew Lucas rationally what anti semitism meant, rationally what Islamophobia Or racism or Asian hate or all of these isms and hate. I rationed to what it meant until recently where I've seen, You know, a 400% increase in anti Semitic behavior and anti Semitic hate crimes. And so that's unfortunately something that I Knew existed and had been told about. But for the first time, I'm truly genuinely feeling it And seeing seeing it more so online than any one act that's happening to me personally. And the thing that I'm choosing to do is there are a few friends of mine that I have a very close relationship with Who maybe have views different than than me as it relates to Israel or as it relates to the conflict in the Middle East, And as opposed to shutting them out or canceling them, the ones where I know there's trust, love, respect, I'm leaning into them, and I'm saying, hey. Can we have a chat so I can learn about your point of view and get curious and challenge my own? And if you're willing, you know, share my experience as well. Stephen Shedletzky [00:37:23]: And, yeah, just the power and what we need to do more to be on team human. Because when we pick any one side, I think we can cause more destruction than good. So, yeah, unfortunately, I'm learning about Teismatism from a logical point of view to a really felt and personal point of view. And then I'm leaning into, How can I disagree with someone and still love them so long as our disagreement isn't rooted in them oppressing my right to exist? And likewise. Lucas Flatter [00:37:56]: Well, yeah, I'm glad that you spoke on that. Yeah. We JR and I, you know, don't necessarily speak on those issues, So it's nice to have a voice that has that perspective. Thank you. Stephen Shedletzky [00:38:08]: My pleasure. You you you warned me JR is gonna be an off the wall question, so I gave you an off the response, but a a truthful one none nonetheless. J.R. Flatter [00:38:17]: Well, that concludes this episode of building a coaching culture. I truly hope that this episode was helpful to you. If it was, be sure to follow us wherever you listen to podcasts. Maybe stop and give us a rating or a review and share this podcast with someone who might find it helpful as well. Thanks again, and we'll see you next time.