Coaching Across Global Cultures | with David Owden

Building a Coaching Culture - #94: Coaching Across Global Cultures | with David Owden === J.R. Flatter [00:00:45]: Hey. Welcome back, everybody. I'm JR Flatter. And as always, I'm joined by my cohost, Lucas. Lucas Flatter [00:00:51]: Hello. J.R. Flatter [00:00:52]: And we are building a coaching culture. That's our podcast, Ben. And we're so honored to have you here as our distinguished guest. I'll take a few seconds just to remind everyone of who are focus audiences, leaders of complex organizations, Surviving and thriving in the 21st century labor market. You know, it's not lost on us that it's a global labor market, largely virtual. And how do you become an employer of choice? And so we think Lucas and I very strongly that coaching and coaching culture is the leadership style of the 21st century that will allow you to become an employer of choice where you'll attract the world's best talent rather than repel the world's best talent. So that's what we're all about. That's what our coaching, coaching education is all about. J.R. Flatter [00:01:46]: So I'd welcome you to come in and tell us about the great things you're doing and, anything else that might come to mind. David Owden [00:01:53]: Thank you, J. R. So my name is Ben Oden. I am a leadership development trainer and coach. I am based in Tanzania, which is in East Africa, in the eastern side of Africa. Most people are familiar with Kenya, so we're right next to them, but serving clients everywhere. And I run an organization called Wiley Consultancy, and the vision that really makes us wake up every day and be excited to go to work is that we wanna help or partner with organizations to develop the kinds of leaders who inspire conviction, commitment, and congruence because we believe that if leaders are able to inspire their people, that sense of passion, but at the same time, when people are committed to results and there is a sense of character, then you can have sustainable leadership. So that's what we try to do with all of our clients when we work with different organizations. J.R. Flatter [00:02:44]: So, you say you have a global cohort that you're working with. One of the things we're the center of our world is culture. Talk to us about coaching across different cultures and creating leaders across different cultures. David Owden [00:03:01]: Culture is a it's interesting because I was we're assessing a certain group of managers today feel like a leadership readiness program. And we brought up that word culture, and 2 people had different responses to what exactly that means. But I think when you talk about culture, sitting where I'm sitting, it's always almost comical observing people because you realize that 2 people might be saying the same exact thing, might be operating from the same set of principles, But because they come from different cultures, that manifests itself very differently. And usually a lot gets lost in translation and conflict might happen, but actually, they were on the same page to begin with. They were standing on the same side to begin with. So culture is it's a very interesting phenomenon to just observe on a very macro level where, you know, you're from the western world, you're from the eastern world, you're from Africa, you you know and and sometimes we try to group people in some of those, stereotypical archetypes. You know, if you're from the west, you're probably low context in your communication. Get more direct. David Owden [00:04:08]: If you're from the eastern side or you're certain parts of Africa, you're more high context, and you're not very forward in your communication. And all all of those things are true. I think because of globalization, the gap has been narrowed. So now you find you have high context people in a predominantly low context culture. Right? So now people are a mix of everything. So if you go in with the expectation that I'm dealing with someone from India. And so I know Indians usually behave a certain way or they communicate a certain way. It works half the time because now a lot of people send their kids abroad to study. David Owden [00:04:45]: Right? Now people are spending a lot of time consuming a lot of content online. Now people are part of cohorts of learning from different parts of the world. So now culture has become more nuanced, but at the same time, There's that sense of pressure where we all have to be make sure that we are culturally intelligent. And you can learn that, but I think I've found in my experience what has helped me is traveling. When you travel and you immerse yourself in different cultures, you really learn to appreciate what other cultures have to offer and how you can discern, you know, subtle cues and prompt in communication. So I think culture is definitely something. You say coaching is one of those core skills for a 21st century leader. I think culture culture intelligence use one of those skills as well. David Owden [00:05:34]: Especially now with remote work, you might be hiring someone from the Philippines, someone from Japan, someone from New Zealand. And so if you if you're not well aware of, at least, maybe not the specifics, but general cultural landscape of different parts of the world, It might be very challenging and hard. So, for example, I was talking to this client of mine from America, and I know you guys don't really celebrate Eid around that time. But where I'm from and in many parts of Africa, there are large Muslim communities and populations. And so it is a very big deal, right? People in workspaces. There are prayer rooms. When you talk about prayer rooms, you're not just talking about the Judeo Christian approach to prayer, but, you know, you have mats and things like that to accommodate the Muslim community. And And as I was talking to her, she didn't even cross her mind because that's just not something that's obvious in the context that she is in. David Owden [00:06:27]: And so you see a lot of how people negotiate, for example, how people contribute in meetings. Some some cultures, especially in high honor cultures. And my culture is like that where if there are older people in the room, if there are more experienced people in the room, usually, the junior people will probably wait for permission to contribute, to say something. And if you're from a culture where I'm expecting you to contribute. I'm expecting you to challenge. I'm expecting you to engage without needing the permission. You might walk away with the perception that people are very laid back. People are lazy, probably they're disengaged, but actually the whole time they were waiting for you to give them a cue saying, Hey, it's time to jump in. David Owden [00:07:08]: So I think being a consultant and working with people from different places, you you see that more vividly. But at the same time, it's something that I always urge and encourage leaders. Travel, connect with people who are outside of your culture, and expand your worldview. Because the more expansive your worldview is, the easier it is to always create space and accommodate people who see the world differently from you. J.R. Flatter [00:07:33]: No. I love that. And there's so much richness in what you've just said. Lucas Flatter [00:07:37]: So I like the word that you used earlier, congruence, because We talk about how, you know, cultures vary across geography. But something I'm noticing lately, and I think it's about the Internet kind of enabling all of these small micro communities where maybe people that live right next door to me have a completely different, in a worldview, and and we not might not be congruent and, you know, seeing things from The same angle. What are ways that you can kinda build that congruence and have people, you know, Sharing the same reality, so to speak. David Owden [00:08:19]: Yeah. So, actually, there's an activity that we do with a lot of our clients. We try to make it part of every session, to facilitate. Because we believe that this is the basis for any sort of collaboration. Right? Having a sense of shared values or at least having an understanding of where you agree and where you disagree and, you know, how to operate from there. So this is like a very short shorten the version of how that usually looks like. But we start off by saying, you know, of course, you're an organization. What are the values of this organization? Oh, these are our 10 values. David Owden [00:08:52]: Write people first, customer centricity, passion, love, integrity, communication, a sense of urgency. You know, they list all their values. I said, okay, well, not all values are created equal. Some of these values are probably stronger than others. Right? So where we are now as an organization, out of these ten sets of values. What would you say are the 5 most important values? If you were to get rid of 5, these are the 5 that you would keep. One of those 5, right? We narrow it down. And then at that point, we say, now let's create a hierarchy of values. David Owden [00:09:27]: Meaning, out of these 5, what's at the very top of the pyramid and what's at the very bottom, right? Number 1 is a value that you would rather shut closed shop than compromise this value as a company. And then all the way to number 5. And it's interesting because now you see how you value things differently. And that dialogue, that sense of push and pull to get to a point of agreement that, okay, maybe we might not agree on number 3 or 4 or 5. But let's at least agree on what are the 2 top values. Right? And during those discussions and dialogue is when you people get to understand each other. Oh, so why? This is why this decision was made the way that it was made. It's because in the hierarchy of values, this is more important in the grand scheme of things for this organization than this. David Owden [00:10:16]: This is it's important, but it's not as important as this aspect. So then when you look at it from that point, so I think when you have agreement in that sense of values, then it becomes easy to agree to disagree. I I disagree with you on this aspect, but it's not gonna affect our relationship because I know that we do agree on the the core issues here. Right? So I think That's an activity that we do, and we do that on a team level, on an organizational level, but even on a personal level. Meaning that, what are your top ten values. What are your top five values? And then what's the hierarchy there? And do you operate in alignment with those values. So I'll give you an example. My top five values, right, there's truth. David Owden [00:11:01]: There's meekness, which is taken from the Bible. Right? This is when Jesus is talking to people and He's saying, blessed are the meek, for they shall inherit the earth. And the translation is the sense of a combination of strength and humility, meaning that there's competence, but there's also a sense of humility. Curiosity is another one of those values. And then family is another value as well that's in there. And so in these four core values, my top value is truth. And the second1 is family. The third one is meekness. David Owden [00:11:37]: And then the 4th one is curiosity. And people ask me, how is family second? I thought that would be first. But I say for me, truth is more important because truth is where I find my alignment as an individual. I'm not a good husband unless I stand on the truth. I'm not a good father. I'm not a good anything unless I know that I am operating from a sense of truth and honesty. If this is broken, Yes, I might intend to be there for my family, but I'm not as functional and I'm not as productive as I should be. So my wife knows this. David Owden [00:12:15]: A lot of people in my life know this. And so I fight to make sure that I stand on this truth. So I would rather compromise some relationships for the sake of making sure that I am standing on what is true and on certain principles that I've said these are because that's more important. So it doesn't mean that I don't value the relationships, but I know that the relationship is only functional because I have not compromised this top value. Right. So that sense of clarity, I think helps a lot on an individual level, but also on an organizational level to make to have those conversations where you see, where do we align? We might disagree in some things. But do we align around the core important things? But I think sometimes in larger groups, you find that you have 10 values. You can't align on all of those 10. David Owden [00:12:57]: The 10 values or not is are not equally important. You might find that you have 2 or 3 that these these are their core values. Right? The rest of them are nice to haves, but the 3, the 2, the 4, these are the core values. So I think for me, having that dialogue with the people in my life, having that dialogue with my team, having that dialogue And facilitating that dialogue with some of my clients has proven to be very useful and productive. J.R. Flatter [00:13:23]: No. That's great stuff. We talk about core values a lot and culture that they go hand in hand and Communicating them versus demonstrating them. Right? Just one thing to communicate a core value and then it's totally another. Are you actually demonstrating that? But also the list should be very short and existential. Right? I bet your meekness It's existential to your life. Like, you couldn't be Ben Oden without that core value. And when we're talking to organizations In talking about core values, a lot of times people identify core values as things that are nice to have Or if they didn't have it, it would annoy them. J.R. Flatter [00:14:10]: But really, they are the core, right? That's why they call them core values. They're the core of the the organization. I want to go back a step if you don't mind because you you you said a phrase that I love, And I'm gonna steal it from you, and I'll cite you whenever I use it. But you said, high honor culture and Tanzania as many other Countries and even within organizations have high honor cultures Where, you know, don't speak unless spoken to, don't speak without permission. But I think the 21st century, this virtual global workforce that we're talking about, There's an expectation and actually a significant high value for the voices of those That we wouldn't necessarily have sought their insights. How do we work across that to communicate? It's not disrespect, it's A high value contribution. There's potential for a high value contribution. David Owden [00:15:16]: I think that's a good question. And it's something that I think a lot of organizations are struggling with. Right? So part of it is cultural, but you see it with generations as well, where now there's that transition. And, for example, in Africa, over 70% of the population are people who are either the tail end of millennials and the beginning of Gen z. So it's a young continent. But the workforce the majority of the people in the force, especially people in positions of authority, are boomers. And so you see there's a generational divide where one generation is expecting and almost demanding the respect and the honor, and then another generation that's being raised to be disruptive because they grew up in a world that's disruptive. Every day, things are changing. David Owden [00:16:05]: Now we're talking about AI. A few years ago, it was about cryptocurrency and, you know, NFTs after that. So so many things have happened in the span of, like, 7 years that are disruptive and are changing how we live and operate in the world. And yet you want them to just, you know, speak when they're spoken to to wait for that time while everybody else is moving at a different pace. So I think now The change has to happen on both ends, meaning, 1, for the younger generation or those who don't really have those positions of power, really to appreciate the wisdom and the experience those who sit in those places have. I think that appreciation. So then that opens the door for them to see them as collaborators, not as gatekeepers, because I think as long as we have that gatekeeping mindset, meaning that you're stopping me from actually getting to where I want to go or from achieving what I want to do. Then we're not collaborating, right? We're sitting on opposite sides and we're enemies. David Owden [00:17:04]: At the same time, for those who are sitting in those positions and for those who have the power, to also not see this desire for disruption as a personal attack against them. But to actually see that it's good for everybody, everybody wins. We win as a world when everyone participate. In fact, one of the values for our organization is Ubuntu first. And Ubuntu is a Bantu word that means I am because we are. And I think a famous, it's been popularized by Doc Rivers. I think they're coach for he coached the Boston Celtics at the time and the time I think was 'eight, 'nine when they won the championship, ship a thing against the Lakers. This was the word that really rallied the team together that I am because we are our strength is dependent upon my strength And my strength, you know, is a result of collectively being strong. David Owden [00:17:58]: And so this sense of not just thinking about yourself, but thinking about the entire system, not just people, but the planet as well. So I think as long as we don't personalize some of these changes, the disruption is something that's meant to take your job. But actually looking at it from a more holistic aspect that actually we are evolving as a people. And the world is changing and some of a lot of that change is actually good for all of us. So how can we collaborate in such a way that we all become, you know, productive participants and contributors in this world that we live in. But I think as long as our view is very, you're out to get me and you're my enemy. I think then the collaboration is weakened and we don't really see a lot of that. And especially in Tanzania and many parts of Africa, you see that. David Owden [00:18:45]: People who are embracing the change and are seeing the younger generation as collaborators, people who are coming up with these ideas, then they're like, okay, you know, people who are embracing the digitization of a lot of operations. It works better because now you have this more mature, experienced, seasoned person collaborating with someone who's got a lot of energy and a lot of great ideas, but maybe lacks the experience and the wisdom to navigate a lot of those spaces. Then it becomes a very productive collaboration. But I think for places where there's resistance to that, it's challenging. And a big part of that, to be honest, is culture, meaning that it has to go back to the person. Have a sense of confidence in who you are. Do you derive and build your identity upon what you do or who you are as a person. Because if all your value as a person is based on what you do and you feel like there is a change that's going to disrupt what I do and I don't have the competence and the skill set to be productive in this new world, then you're going to resist that because now who am I? Right? It's that existential crisis. David Owden [00:19:46]: Who am I exactly in this space? But if your identity is, you know, built upon the right set of values being adaptable, being agile, being flexible, then you see all those things as opportunities. Wow. It's my opportunity to demonstrate that I'm actually agile, that I'm actually flexible, that I can transform, you know, depending on this wave that's actually come in. So I think, unfortunately, it has to go back to the individual, and a lot of the pressure is on the individuals with the power because, you know, power is it's good. It's it's nice. It's It's comfortable. You want to protect what you've built and what you have. And so the change is how much harder, the more accomplished you are. David Owden [00:20:23]: But I think we have to And this is where the role of coaching actually comes in because the coaches comes alongside of you and helps you decode a lot of these changes, but also develop a more accommodating lens where you see all of these as opportunities that are okay. Now there's AI. How do I fit into that? And, you know, okay. I have maybe I need to develop a skill on how to write the right, you know, better prompts. And actually, because of all the experience that I have, I can probably come up with more rich prompts for this AI to be delivering. So whereas someone who's younger and, you know, inexperienced, they might have the skill to navigate there, but then the content is lacking. So I think a lot of that change has to come from the individual level. And thankfully, we live in a world where there are coaches pretty much everywhere who can help facilitate that transition and that change. Lucas Flatter [00:21:13]: Speaking of the individual, we're often talking about this intersection between Personal and professional. And you mentioned, like, that people kind of have an identity around, you know, How they might approach work. How do you approach that whole person aspect, like People's personal lives, and how does that factor into their identity in in these environments? David Owden [00:21:40]: Definitely. I think From my point of view, one of the challenges that we are facing in the world right now is, I think as the world is becoming more secular, the more prevalent this sense of existential crisis is becoming, right? Because people are moving away from the faith that they were raised in, which brought was a great source of meaning for a lot of people. And so now that meaning is being transferred to work, meaning that work has to be as meaningful to replace some of that. And that's why you'd find that in the past, people could just work and contribute and be productive. But these days, you have to make sure that the work is purposeful. And because people don't have a lot of sources for that sense of meaning in their lives, which is it's a good thing because now, you know, we're thinking about work as a source of meaning. But I think it's also risk it because some jobs are very hard to find that angle. It's very, very hard. David Owden [00:22:40]: A person who was talking to me as a banker and they were like, you know, your job is very meaningful, man. Mine, not so much. And, you know, you try to convince a person, but then be like, no. I'm I'm I work in the technical department of a bank. Like, how you know? So while there is a sense of meaning, but It's not going to be as meaningful as someone who is dedicating their time to go to, you know, Israel or Palestine or to go to Russia or Ukraine. I think it's that's that person's sense of meaning will be very different because the work that they do, there's a very direct result and contribution that they are seeing. And so I think now because of that, then we have to we have to be careful so that we don't set the wrong expectations around the work that we do, around the relationships in the work. And the same thing with relationships, right? People, because of how isolated we are as the world, people aren't developing deep relationships outside of work. David Owden [00:23:36]: You know, you have your work friends and then then there are places you can't really go with those friends. And as a result, Some of the disappointment that people are experiencing are not because the organizations are set up in the wrong way, but it's because we have disrupted some of the things that maybe shouldn't have been completely dismantled in our society. And so I think On a personal level, I would say it's very important to diversify your life, meaning that heavier relationships have some sort of a belief system so that have hobbies and things that are meaningful to you. You have to make sure that you diversify So that as all of these changes and disruptions are happening, your life is still there's a sense of stability around your life. But if you put all of your eggs in this basket of work, then if something goes wrong and things do go wrong, the challenges are all part of the whole thing, then your whole world is shaken. But it's because you you invested in one particular thing, and it didn't pay out. Lucas Flatter [00:24:37]: I love that. Diversify your life. I I totally believe that. So thanks for that. J.R. Flatter [00:24:42]: Every time I think I have my next question for you, I hear you say something else and I'm like blown away. That is such a powerful statement and insight. And put my professor hat on for a moment. I think what you're describing in a sense is Postmodernism. Because in in premodernism, if we wanted to know what truth was, we asked God. In modernism, the 400 and odd years of enlightenment, science was true. If you wanted to know what was true, you asked Science, Copernicus and and all those folks, Einstein. But now we're in the flirting with this idea that In postmodernism, there is no truth. J.R. Flatter [00:25:28]: Like, it's what I whatever I say is true, which is fraught with risk, As you have indirectly described for many reasons, but culturally and organizationally, It's an impossibility. If you and I are going to work together, we have to say, here are a few things that we agree upon, Right? And those become our, what I would say, little t truth. Faith is a big t truth. The little t truths are You're gonna show up on time and you're gonna work hard and you're gonna be 1 or 2 other existential things. I don't care how you wear your hair. I don't care how you dress Too much how you speak. I don't want you dropping the f bomb every other word, but, you know, it's okay once in a while, I do it myself. And one of the beauties of coaching is that we coach to the individual and what are their truths. J.R. Flatter [00:26:25]: And if they don't have any, then help them discover what are their truths. And if their truths are out of alignment with an organization with which they've said, I want to work with point out, you realize there might be a misalignment here. What needs to change? So I'll get off my soapbox and ask a question. You've talked about the continent of Africa multiple times, and we know you're in Tanzania, But David Owden [00:26:53]: a lot of the J.R. Flatter [00:26:53]: world doesn't know Africa at all. How diverse it is. I'm actually watching a television series filmed in Mauritius. It's really actually very good. I've spent a good bit of time in the continent, but I don't pretend to know it. So talk to us about the, the continent. And what's going on there? What do you think? Do a little SWOT analysis for us. So if we're thinking about do business there or engaging there. David Owden [00:27:21]: I mean, I would say I'm sure there's, you know, there's there are a lot of studies that have been done and predictions that Africa is the next, is where the next gold is gonna strike and, you know, those who wanna come in, come in now, which is true. And I think it's mostly because of the population aspect of things. It's the part of the world with the youngest population. And, you know, we're millions, hundreds of millions of young people. So that's a that alone means, you know, like as far as labor and workforce, whereas a lot of parts of the developed world, there's a population decline. And that right now, it doesn't really make a lot of difference. But, you know, 30, 40 years from now, that's going to be which means, you know, either you somehow create immigration laws that allow for people outside to come in very easily. So I think that alone create a lot of opportunity for people. David Owden [00:28:18]: So that's why you find a lot of Chinese organizations are aggressively investing in Africa right now because, of course, the population issue for them is it's a real problem. It's pretty obvious. And they they need places to deploy their people and to set up, you know, their factories, and they're doing that aggressively across the continent investing in infrastructure, which is basically just expand their operations in in terms of production. You see other countries as well, you know, being interested in investing. But I think Africa in terms of workforce. It's a young continent. But at the same because of that, then the young population comes in with a lot of opportunities, right? There's a lot of creativity, a lot of disruption, innovation. So a lot of investment dollars actually is coming this way. David Owden [00:29:07]: 100 of 1,000,000 of dollars are being invested in Silicon Valley venture capitalists investing in startups in Africa. Nigeria is one of probably one of the top markets for that, Kenya, Tanzania, South Africa, Egypt. So you see that technologically, there's a lot of Initially, there was a sense of American companies wanting to roll out, you know, an Amazon for Africa. But then because of the cultural differences. It doesn't really translate well, so it only makes sense for someone who understands the cultural context. How do you shop? What are the shopping habits? Right? I've had friends who've come over. And in America, tipping is almost considered just you don't even have to ask somebody. It's a it's a thing that people do. David Owden [00:29:50]: Tipping here is not really a culture that you do. It's something that somebody does when they feel like they want to or they have to, but it's not something that's expected. Right? When you talk about delivering products or any items to someone's house, there's a mistrust. People are people want to see something. I wanna touch it. I wanna feel it. I'm not so a lot of online businesses are very niche. You know? You won't have the level of scale of Amazon and things like So it look it all looks very different, and because of the cultural aspect of it. David Owden [00:30:20]: And so I think organizations and people, investors, and who are able to appreciate that and find ways to collaborate with people who have the ear on the ground and people who understand the cultural landscape are very successful. But I think there is a lot of potential. Of course, if you go to the natural resource side of things, it's pretty obvious. The majority of, cobalt, for example, is coming from the Congo. A lot of minerals to make when you talk about being sustainable, sustainable materials. A lot of them come from different parts of Africa. So I think raw material rich young population, lots of opportunities for, you know, building successful and thriving businesses. I think the biggest challenge that we have is that while we have a young, ambitious population, the population is not as skilled as it ought to be for the economy to really take off. David Owden [00:31:17]: And so there's a heavy emphasis around education. It's the reason I do what I do because I know that for these corporations that are being set up for this economy to function properly across the continent. We need leaders who are on top of their game. We need a workforce that's highly skilled. We need all of that, right? So that can happen from an educational perspective. And there are a lot of people working in that space to make sure that from a young age, the school system is working you know, it's contributing the right things. I think in Kenya, they have started teaching kids how to code in primary school, right, which is knew it was something that was not done. But now kids in primary school and some remote villages have computers, and they're learning how to code because that's the future. David Owden [00:32:00]: You know? It's a whereas people learn how to type in the past, now you have to know how to code. And so things are changing a lot from the education perspective. But what do we do about the current workforce that didn't have the privilege to do a lot of those things? Right? And so this is where people like myself come in, where there's a so there's a huge gap in human centered skills, problem solving, critical thinking, leadership, those types of skills. There's a big gap, And we hope that the more people rise up to actually fill and and bridge that gap, you know, the better it's going to be for everybody else. But as far as the raw materials, we have all of them. I think we have the people, we have the natural resources and the infrastructure, the transportation systems, those are getting better and better. And now you see it's easier to access any part of the world from Africa. Rwanda is, I think, getting into a negotiation, I think, with Oman to make sure that Rwanda becomes a transit have for people flying to different parts of the world. David Owden [00:32:54]: So all of these different things are happening and they're setting things up. But I think I believe that people are the linchpin to all of this. We have to get the people side of things right. And I hope to effect some level of change on that side, and I hope more people join in to make sure that they equip leaders. They equip people who are on the ground building products, serving people, making the change so that all of it is actually functional and productive at the end of the day. But it's definitely the place to be. J.R. Flatter [00:33:28]: Now, a lot of what you said resonates very loudly with us. And I think we mentioned it when we were introducing ourselves, but Lucas and I are accredited by the International Coaching Federation to educate and accredit coaches. And I see a huge opportunity, not so much as a business. I think you and I share a similar why, What excites us and it is creating opportunities and developing the workforce. I think there's a great opportunity across the continent to grow coaches because there's a couple of things about coaching. One, We don't make any assumptions that we know you and we know about you. So we start with a blank chalkboard in an empty table. And you bring your challenges into the room, your culture, your vision. J.R. Flatter [00:34:23]: And we help facilitate the discovery of how to get there. So, if you're sitting in Tanzania or Kenya or wherever you might be, you can coach anywhere in the world because even if you're coaching me, a millennial, or a baby boomer in the United States, We would start a relationship with no assumptions that you knew what it was like to be a millennial in the United States. And I just think that you said the word ambitious. I think the workforce there is ambitious and young and Plenty of opportunity to join that global network of coaches. David Owden [00:35:01]: Yeah. And I think that now, you know, that's a real need for a lot of organizations to turn their managers into coaches. Because the the performance appraisal system of the old days is no longer functional. Right? Just giving somebody feedback and telling them, this is your score in these areas. It's no longer functional. Meaning that now transferring learning is one of those skills not everybody has, right? So sometimes you you might have knowledge, but it's hard for you to convert that to, like, you know, declarative knowledge where something that you can explain, something that you can roll out to somebody else. So you might know how to think critically, but how do you coach someone to do that? Right? And that's why people, you know, take the lazy approach and say, it's just a talent. Gift because you don't know how to bring that out of somebody else. David Owden [00:35:52]: And so now there's been a real need for turn in line managers into coaches so that they're not just telling people what they've done right or what they've done wrong, but they're actually challenging them that they're actually putting a mirror in front of them and for them to realize, oh, okay. So this is what I can I should probably think through? Oh, this is what maybe was influencing my behavior in that particular aspect. And I should consider this one. So there's a real need now instead of outsourcing coaching to people outside. Why don't we turn our managers who have the inside knowledge, who are with these people every day so they have that advantage of the know how, right? And which means it's probably more effective. It's probably cheaper as well, which means we don't have to actually pay from your outside, all the time. But we can actually just turn certain individuals in the organization, and they can coach in, you know, other people and the emerging talent, so to speak. So there's a real need for that, and organizations are slowly embracing that idea that, oh, okay, this is something that, you know, the return on investment is very obvious and very clear. J.R. Flatter [00:36:58]: Yeah. I mean, that's music to ours because that's what Lucas and I do. We create coaches that go back into their organizations and coach internally to do exactly what you're describing. And my last comment, then I'll pass to Lucas for the last question. You know, again, thinking of, I'm that boomer that you were describing And Lucas is a millennial. I'm not sure where you fall into that continuum. I won't even assume. Here in this 21st century, Moore's law is dead, right? Technology used to replace itself every 2 years, I think, whatever Moore's law's prediction was. J.R. Flatter [00:37:36]: Well, now it's like exponential, right? Technology is replacing itself as we speak. And so there's a real need For intergenerational conversation and contribution, I'm slowly discovering that If you read Shakespeare, I'm in the 5th of my 7 acts of life. And I'm waking up to that. And my whole generation has to, and certainly, Gen Z, as they become what the boomers are now, tail end of our careers, to not only listen for, but encourage the voices of people much younger and less gray hair, less experience. I think it's existential to thriving and surviving in the 21st century. So, Lucas, pass to you as our tradition is for the last question. Lucas Flatter [00:38:25]: So I wanna talk a little bit about, that we were talking about how humans crave meaning. And I think, something that I struggle with sometimes is the instant gratification or junk food aspect of, Oh, I could do you know, I could watch YouTube or I could read a book. You know, I could, you know, play a video game or I could practice guitar Or, you know, those kind of decisions in your life. So how do you personally avoid the junk food or the instant gratification and find meaning in in, you know, daily life. David Owden [00:39:04]: I think one of the transformational ideas that have transformed how I think and and has improved the quality of my life. It's this idea of downsizing my life. That meaning to a large degree comes from knowing what to neglect. Right now, we could be doing 10 different other things. Right? But the choice to say no to everything else and be here is what gives this moment meaning. But I think as long as we get lost in that sense of formal, right, fear of missing out, then life is not meaningful because you're on this job. But then you're like, I feel like I should be doing something else. Then you're not appreciating and taking in everything that this present job can offer you. David Owden [00:39:48]: So I think because we live in a world where it's so interconnected, you're accessing everything any time you know what's happening in different countries. Social media is one of those things. So because of that access, sometimes we desire and want things that are outside of our present reality. And that longing for those things that are outside, you know, it erodes the meaning of what you're currently experiencing. And so, I think for me, it's understanding that I'm not omnipresent. I can't really be everywhere at once. I can only be where I am. And being intentional about the choices, meaning that not just going with, you know, the triggers and the prompts that are thrown my way, but choosing the things that I want, meaning that I am choosing this moment. David Owden [00:40:35]: I am choosing to go here. I am choosing to do this. I think that sense of choice is what brings meaning and being okay with missing out. I remember a while back I was So I grew up. My dream was to become a filmmaker. And I particularly wanted to work in Hollywood. I was studied, participate in the competition's screenwriting. I said, you know, I'm going to write scripts for movies or TV shows. David Owden [00:41:00]: And it just wasn't happening. You know, competitions. You know, you write scripts and think 1 thing got produced here locally, but then the experience was just not good. The economics were not making sense. And so I just slowly started to pivot. But I was saying, I still did it on the side for a long time. And it got to a point where I realized that I was not fully enjoying and fully committed to what I am doing now because I'm still holding on to this idea that I should probably be doing that. Or when I come across friends and people who have advanced And you see your friend, oh, you see this person like I know them and they've made a movie for Netflix. David Owden [00:41:40]: You're like, man. But then when I embrace this idea, I remember I had what I call a funeral. I said, I am laying this dream, this idea to rest. And and there were tears. I was I was felt the real sense of loss. But it was one of the most beautiful things that happened to me because a high level of appreciation was birthed for what I do now. Because it's a choice. It's like you're dating 4 different people, but I'm choosing this person to marry. David Owden [00:42:08]: This is who I'm gonna spend the rest of my life with. So It's a loss as in I can't continue to explore and experience all those other things. But the richness that I'm going to gain by solely exploring this one option is, you know, is it's very meaningful. So, I think for me, I think being okay with cutting your losses, being okay with saying, I can't do that and that, but I'm choosing to do this. You feel the loss at the beginning, but that sense of meaning is very strong. And I think today, we don't want that. We want to experience everything. We want to taste everything. David Owden [00:42:43]: We want to try everything. And, you know, you can explore so much, but then at some point you're going to start to exploit and say, you know, this is what I'm going to be doing for the rest of my life. And I think my generation. And I'm a, you know, I'm a millennial like yourself, Lucas. I think we struggle with that because there are options everywhere. You're saying, you know, everything is candy. It's fall. And technology is like that. David Owden [00:43:06]: Experiences are like that. Relationships are like that. I have people who have friends who are not married, you know, choose. It's like, how do I make my decision? There's so many options. I mean, I could you know? But it's like, okay. At some point, you'll have to make a decision. And as long as you don't make that decision, life will be a little less meaningful because meaning has to come from downsizing and saying, I could do 10 things, but I'm choosing to do this 1 thing. Lucas Flatter [00:43:31]: That's amazing. I've been mulling over these ideas for, you know, months or years, and that kind of Wraps it up in a really nice way. So I'm gonna be thinking about this a lot. Thank you. David Owden [00:43:42]: Thank you. Thank you for that question. J.R. Flatter [00:43:44]: Very powerful. And for me, for the 2nd time today, I'll put my professor hat on. And it's the difference between life goals and objectives to get to those goals. And For us, what Lucas and I teach our goals are those very few things, no matter what happens, would never change. And usually, they evolve around 3 things, love, health, and finances. You want love in your life. You want to be surrounded by people who love you, you want to give love, you want to have the best health you can have, and you don't want to live paycheck to paycheck. So those are goals. J.R. Flatter [00:44:20]: I could describe for you right now what my 30 year goals are. When I'm 91, where do I want to be? What do I want to be doing? Objectives change along the way. Like you just described the change of objectives that was very passionate and emotional. David Owden [00:44:36]: But I J.R. Flatter [00:44:36]: think your life goal remained the same, and that was to have a life of joy surrounded by people who love you. Well, that concludes this episode of building a coaching culture. I truly hope that this episode was helpful to you. If it was, Be sure to follow us wherever you listen to podcasts. Maybe stop and give us a rating or a review and share this podcast with someone who might find it helpful as well. Thanks again, and we'll see you next time.