Leadership is a Journey: From Human Resources to Casino Management | with Amy C. Brennan

Building a Coaching Culture - #127: Leadership is a Journey: From Human Resources to Casino Management | with Amy C. Brennan === Amy Brennan: [00:00:00] it's a balance of, making the time for it, but also trusting in those who never want to let you down and letting someone who wants to be in this seat one day. Be in charge. J.R. Flatter: Hey, welcome back, everybody. I'm J. R. Flatterer, and this is Building a Coaching Culture, here with my co host, Lucas. How you doing today? Lucas Flatter: good. J.R. Flatter: our distinguished guest today is Amy C. Brennan. And I'm sure there's a reason for the C, cause I [00:01:00] see it in everything every time I see your name. Amy and I have known each other for quite a while. I won't say how many years. And happens to be one of my favorite people in the world. So I'm really looking forward to this conversation. very genuine, very caring leader. And so with that, I pass floor to you, Amy, and I know you're a humble woman, but take some time to brag about yourself, who you are and what you're doing and where you're heading. Amy Brennan: All right. Well, I will try, but you're right. I'm not great at talking about myself. Um, but Amy C. Brennan. there is no great significance to the C. I just, when I got my first checkbook, it had my middle initial on it because that's what my grandma told me to do. And I started signing everything Amy C. And so I just became Amy C. but I am, in the gaming business. I've been in the gaming business for 25 years. I am currently the general manager at the Hollywood Casino in Perryville, Maryland, part of the Penn [00:02:00] Entertainment family. I've been with the company for 15 years, worked for another gaming company prior to that. I have lived in 10 states in the last 25 years, uh, 14 different properties. I spent time in slots in customer service and human resources, have moved back and forth across the country a few times, absolutely love the gaming business, have been in this current role for a couple of years. and it's been an interesting couple of years for sure. It's given me a lot of material to talk to you about today, J. R. J.R. Flatter: Yeah, absolutely, and I'm heartbroken that you're a five hour drive from me, but one of these days I got to make it up there, and I found out yesterday gaming means something very different to Millennials and Gen Zs. It means you're sitting in a chair with a controller in your hands. And so, Amy Brennan: Absolutely. J.R. Flatter: I was talking to another gentleman in the [00:03:00] gaming industry that came up in the conversation. To be the general manager of a casino is a pretty big deal. talk to us a little bit about the complexity of the team you have, but also the customer base you have and marketing and anything else that falls under your purview as the general manager. Amy Brennan: Well, I think one thing that people that go to casinos don't think about is the fact that we are our own self contained business. we have a marketing department, a finance department, IT, HR, all of those facilities. just in the last week, I can tell you, I learned more about generators than I've ever wanted to know in my entire life. but it is like running a small city. in and of itself, you're managing your team members and team member relations. You're managing guest service and the thousands of guests that come in and out of the building every day. you're managing an awful lot of [00:04:00] money and the process. by which it flows through our business, both physically and then on paper. so, you know, from a dollar bill going into a slot machine to being on our balance sheet, an, all of the processes in between, is part of the role as well. We also have food and beverage operations, which is giant warehousing and ordering and prep and food safety and sanitation and lot of things that's involved with that. Casinos typically also have a team member dining room. So not a lot of businesses have their own cafeteria, so to speak, but that's also another element of what we have as well. Um, it's highly regulated business that most people also don't understand. To just work in a casino, the licensing process is, Intrusive, to say the least. I think the Maryland gaming agents know more about me than anybody else in my life based on my license and, and all the information I have to submit associated with that, but also every single thing that [00:05:00] we do is measured and monitored. There's an SOP for it. There's a camera watching it, and folks that are operating all of those jobs. So, One day I could be dealing with a team member issue. The next day I can be putting a temporary generator outside. The next day I could be calling the water company because A landscaping company is stealing water out of our fire hydrant. Like, you never know what to expect, which is one of the things I love about this business. Every day is completely different, and it has definitely been an adventure, an amazing adventure. J.R. Flatter: Oh, great. And you mentioned Penn. have they changed their name because it was Penn National Gaming? From what I remember. Amy Brennan: Yes, it is now Penn Entertainment. changed a couple of years ago, just because we've expanded, uh, beyond just Casinos and the gaming side of the business with, the acquisition of the score, which is the ESPN of Canada, [00:06:00] basically. and they do a lot with, sports betting. And we're, we're more in the sports betting business, especially as more and more states, have online sports betting as well as inside the building. we do, are doing a lot more with entertainment, as you know, from Charlestown, they offer a ton of entertainment and we also have some large venues elsewhere. So, To your point about our younger customers, which we attracted over the course of COVID, trying to create more, a larger experience than just slots and tables and what else can we offer at our property that's a full service entertainment experience. And we decided we've done more and expanded more outside of the casino side and thought our name didn't necessarily represent who we are as a whole. Delicately, Lucas Flatter: you know, with regards to all those different, you know, disciplines and, and departments, you know, wide ranging from IT to, you know, food do [00:07:00] you, manage those without getting sucked in? You know, I'm sure that people need and, and value your leadership and they want, you know, your support and all these things. So how do you manage all that and all the different things? Amy Brennan: I think, is the best word I could use for that, and you are absolutely right. It is a delicate balance between Stepping on top of my very capable leaders, in the spirit of helping them, you know, versus everybody does want a little piece of you and, and want some of your time and, and some of your experience. And I do not have that. All the knowledge that it takes to run this building. I absolutely have to rely on the experts of my executive team and especially when I've had a lot of turnover, I've had an opportunity to get closer to some departments than I've been in the past. But I do try to manage some semblance of sort of the chain [00:08:00] of command without sounding like I don't want to hear from you. you know, I'll say things like, Hey, if you talk to your boss, who knows so much more about this, than, than I may know about this. And then knowing when to elevate things, when to just go ahead and do things. It has been a delicate balance. And I don't know that I've always gotten it right, but I think what prepared me for that was my role, some of my roles in human resources, where you have a lot of challenges that come your way. And it's not necessarily, I couldn't fix everything in that role. I needed other people to fix it. And learning how to manage and influence through others is probably one of the most important skills. In this position, that and decision making. The amount of decisions I make every day. I literally don't want to decide where to go for dinner anymore because I've already made 150 decisions by the time it's time for dinner. J.R. Flatter: So you mentioned, uh, turnover, it's no secret that we're in a hyper competitive global labor [00:09:00] market. how are you building a culture that attracts and retains the best talent? Amy Brennan: I would say how I think I make a difference when it comes to that is being the leader that my, leaders need me to be. And so, I mean, adjusting based on what they need. Some leaders just want, To spend some time and to bounce some ideas and want to figure that out themselves. I'll never let anybody fall off a cliff, but someone else may have less experience and want a little bit more guidance. And so I may lead that leader differently. and I think, That helps people feel like you care, you understand what's important to me, you're creating an environment that I thrive in. One question I like to ask all of my applicants coming in is, what's the environment where you're the most productive and happy? And I work hard to create that to the best of my ability and [00:10:00] allow them what they need to be successful in that role. J.R. Flatter: And if I could follow up, across your entire workforce, what's the message you're sending out into the world about Penn? Amy Brennan: So I think one of the things that we talk about are some of the things that we think we offer that is greater than what some of the competitors might be offering. And that is, um, For full time team members, you get benefits on day one. For example, you get paid time off from the time you start. there's a bucket available to you and you earn more over time. And so those are two very competitive items that we use. Now, you also have to get a license of some sort to work in the casino. So there's a bit of time in between when we offer you a position and you can start. And right, that's a time when we tend to lose people. especially because I can walk down the street and get a job and get hired and start tomorrow. And here we're asking you to come on board and, Provide us with a whole bunch of paperwork [00:11:00] and wait for that licensing process to start. and so our HR department works very hard to stay in touch with these candidates to try to make them feel like they're part of the team before they're even here, encouraging them along the steps of the process that, We're not forgetting about you and where they are in the process. but that the licensing process, no matter what jurisdiction you're in, cause it's different in every state. It's dictated differently. It is a definitely a competitive disadvantage for us. but we, Communicate up front what are the expected timelines, how much of that power is in the hands of the applicant, what's the benefit of completing your paperwork early, et cetera. But it definitely presents a challenge, no doubt about it. so we tend to spin on what you get as a result, you know, you're gonna wait 90 days for your benefits somewhere else. So it might take a couple of weeks to get in the door, but you're going to get benefits on day one, for example, and other benefits like that. J.R. Flatter: Yeah, I've been on several of your [00:12:00] properties. Not the one that you're currently at, unfortunately. but the Penn properties And there's a culture at Penn that I don't see in a lot of other places. One would suspect that starts with the CEO and comes down. Could you describe that a little bit for us? How you differentiate your culture? Amy Brennan: absolutely. I think so as a company. We believe in the service profit chain, whereby you take care of your employees, provide them the tools that they need to perform their job well, they stay with you, they become more productive, they deliver excellent service. Our guests in turn recognize this service, recognize it in the form of loyalty, and they bring their friends, and they bring their family, We get more of their gaming budgets, we make more money, we turn that back into giving back to our team members who continue to provide great service, etc. It's a big cycle, but it does start with our team members. As a company, we survey our team members at least once a year. [00:13:00] There are times we'll do it twice a year. And there are anonymous surveys to get their feedback. And then we put plans in place and set goals for how to continue to improve upon those items that are part of that. we reward our team members in the form of a quarterly bonus if we hit certain customer service thresholds. So, anyone who comes into the casino that uses a card, and the card's important because then we know who you are and that you were here and that we'll use a third party to send a survey out. Those come back to us anonymous as well. But if we continue to improve our scores, our team members. A full time team member can get 100 a quarter based on us achieving those results. We spend a focus, we tend to focus our time on those two buckets a lot, and believe when those two are in alignment, we will maintain our financial success. So that's an overarching philosophy of our company and one of the reasons why I love the company and believe in the same [00:14:00] things. At each property we have the autonomy to do whatever we want. So if you've been to multiple properties, while they do all feel the same, there's probably a bit of difference in each one of them as well. And one thing that's unique about Penn versus other gaming companies is the general managers have the autonomy to run their own businesses. No one's dictating our marketing, or our communication or anything about how we do business. We have resources, promotions and events might seem the same because we know if it works at one property, it'll likely work in another. And we definitely want to steal all those great ideas from our sister properties, but we do have the autonomy to drive the business the way we see fit. And there are different nuances to every single market I've been in before. so finding who your core customers are, What is important to them and how we show them, we value them is definitely one of the most important things to do when you start at a [00:15:00] property. Lucas Flatter: Yeah, you kind of, um, you answered the question that I was waiting to ask, which was about, you know, the balance between, you know, the customer is always right and kind of protecting and, and looking out for your own people. But I think. That answer kind of touched on that. so with that in mind, um, thinking about the customer experience, um, you have people that are interested in gambling, some people interested in just going to the bar or the restaurants or, you know, all these different options and, people want different things out of the building when they come there. So how do you kind of balance those different You know, customer personas, if you will. Amy Brennan: well, I think our casino customer is always going to be our first priority. I am going to put the needs of a casino customer over the needs of a food and beverage customer, all day long because it's those casino customers that help us keep our doors open and keep, you know, and provide [00:16:00] our business. we also have to balance the I want to go out and party versus I'm going to a casino because we are so very conscientious and take responsible gaming very seriously and we don't want anyone in this building spending one dime that may have had too much to drink. So we're careful about how frequently we offer those drinks. We monitor our guests to make sure that they're not displaying, they didn't do something before they came in the building to display signs of intoxication or otherwise. and if we immediately, determine or are told by a guest they've had too much immediately have to leave the building. we only want people here who are of sound mind and making the right decisions about what they want to do with their money. And so that's the bigger balancing act between, you know, my girlfriends and I are out for a good time or, you know, my guy friends and I are out for a good time versus this is a place of business that takes [00:17:00] intoxication very seriously. And, our security officers are trained. For how to handle that, how to handle it with grace, will gladly call you an Uber or a taxi because we don't want anybody walking out the door and getting into their car either. and so that's a more, definitely a more delicate balance. And we do take some hits. On our customer service scores because we won't serve you six drinks an hour. We're not, we're not going to do that. It's not responsible. And you're going to have to wait a little bit while we intentionally manage the time it takes to do a round through the casino so that we can also pace you. Lucas Flatter: I like hearing about this stuff. Um, you know, it's, it's a little more, you know, domain specific than we might get in other conversations. But, you know, you're talking about a big policy from leadership that goes directly to the customer experience. So thank you for that. J.R. Flatter: So I mean this quite sincerely because I think it'd be very valuable for our listeners within the gaming industry and external to the gaming [00:18:00] industry. How does one become Amy Brennan? I know you're going to joke about it, but Amy Brennan: Yeah, I was going to, but I decided I shouldn't. You said that I should take myself serious for this call, JR. So I am, uh, and I'm, and I'm not going to brush it off. I think I came into this business, never having been in a casino prior to starting a job in a casino and actually started in the state of Arizona on the HR side of our business. And, I never, ever realized what a great opportunity. A casino is to have a career and the casino business is to have a career. There are so many opportunities to learn and grow. And I think it's a combination of a bunch of things that, allows you to propel your career to wherever you want it to go. I think first of all, having some mentors along the way, and mentors from, it doesn't have to be in your wheelhouse. It could, or your. Matching [00:19:00] your skillset. I like to surround myself with people that think differently than me, has different experiences and looks at things from different perspectives because, you know, our team members come from a whole bunch of different perspectives and the more diversity I surround myself with in thinking and feeling and life experience, the better chance I have. Of whatever I'm doing, making sure there's an aspect of it that touches everyone. so surrounding yourself with people who will give you great advice, will give you honest advice and help you along the way. You have to be willing to work hard. and I think another one of my advantages is I never said no, no matter what the opportunity was, I always said yes. And luckily my life has allowed me to do that. And I've had a support system to allow me to do that. But I wouldn't necessarily say that my career is a very specific ladder up. It's more like a jungle gym. my titles haven't always gone in this, you know, sometimes my titles went like this and I went [00:20:00] from many years in HR to slots that I'd never been in, in, in my life before. And it started somewhat at the beginning and worked my way up. Every single experience, learn what you can, figure out how it applies to the rest of the business. And never be afraid to learn, never stop learning, I think is definitely a part of it. Moving around the country, while I would have never said that was my game plan from the beginning, I just so happen to be that way has also let me, I've worked in In Las Vegas, at large destination casinos, I've worked at small locals places, I've worked on riverboats, I've worked in places with hotels, that's, that's a whole different level of experiences, along the way. There have been some amazing leaders that I have worked with, that I've taken all the best from them. And I've also learned from some of my not amazing leaders how to not make people feel, and I've remembered that, [00:21:00] how somebody might have made me feel along the way and said, I never want to do that to somebody, and I need to remember that, along the way. And I think, um, Never giving up. So multiple times in my career, people said, no one ever gets promoted from HR or, there's not a lot of women in the level of the organization that you're in. And I said that, so it will be a great day when someone quits talking about the fact that I'm a woman and just talks about the fact that I'm a great leader. But in the meantime, I'm going to fight that fight. and I'm going to help pave the way. Somebody has to be first and, or somebody second and third. And, I'm going to do it and make people wonder, why haven't we done this sooner? This was a great idea. you know, this is the, the, the exact profile of a different type of leader that can make their, you know, their own stamp. If you came up through marketing or finance or operations or HR, you bring a slightly different spin to this role. And, I think, Particularly since [00:22:00] COVID, more and more people realize HR has been adding a lot more to, to our businesses than, than hiring and firing people. And they understand the business, from a completely different perspective. And so work hard, never give up, be the leader you'd want to work for and find people to help, talk positively about you when you're not in the room. J.R. Flatter: Yeah. Beautiful. Thank you. Lucas Flatter: You really speak to, uh, drive that we talk about so much and, that resilience when, when something's not going your way to just keep pushing through until, you know, better things come along or, you know, until you make a better situation. So, not everybody has that necessarily. Where does your, you know, internal motivation and drive come from, do you think? Amy Brennan: I would probably say from my mom, she was a single mom that worked really hard to make sure that I could be the first, person in the family to have a college degree. I never questioned going to [00:23:00] college. It was since the moment I was born, I can remember being told like, you will go to college. It was not an option. It was just part of my life plan. And I think really worked really, really hard to make that happen. Gave up her career for a period of time to make sure, that my brother and I had, had what we needed growing up. She never, ever gave up no matter what. so I think I probably was born with some of it, and learned the other part of it by watching her. J.R. Flatter: So in this, in this complex organization that you lead, talk to us about your learning and development program. I know you have this certification piece where I have to learn how to deal blackjack and and all these other things. I think you've gotten rid of the word pit boss. There's a new term for that. I would call all that rather technical. what I've heard you describe a lot of is emotional intelligence and how to build and sustain relationships with other human beings. What are you [00:24:00] doing purposely to create that across this complex organization? Amy Brennan: Well, I'm actually at the start, I would say, of a new chapter of this. So I've been at this property for two years, and in the last, uh, 24 months. We have 24 managers and above from a title perspective, so department heads and above at this property. I've had to replace 23 of the 24 in the last 24 months and quite frankly, For the first time in two years, I have a full executive team as of a week ago. I feel like I've been a, sort of a circus performer, because I feel like I've been spinning plates and balancing, you know, on a balance beam with a hula hoop at the same time, trying to fill in a bunch of gaps. And it's through a variety of reasons why we've had a lot of turnover. Mostly personal choice. By, uh, the leaders that were [00:25:00] here, things in their personal lives, so we opened this property as a pen property. I was actually part of the opening team. This is the first time I've ever gone back to a property I was at before I left, for 12 years and then came back. but in, in the interim, it was owned by another company. And so right about the time that I came back is when we reacquired the property. so the first year, was legitimately about improving our systems, our IT systems, our computer systems, replacing some slot machines. There were probably 200 down machines. On the casino floor slot machines and so just managing some basics of the business. Our guests can't play if they don't have a machine to play on and our systems were outdated and were failing us and not communicating well and you know millions of dollars and a couple years later our systems are In a much, much better place than where they were. but just a ton of leadership turnaround. So trying to [00:26:00] build a culture amidst all of that upheaval from a leadership perspective has made it very challenging. so I am excited and thrilled about what the next year holds because I have a A team, and I'll go back to some degree to your question, Lucas, like, how do you, how do you inspire people to have that kind of drive? I can't, you have to hire them with that kind of drive. And so I have a team that I, and I said this at our first executive team this week, every single person around this table wants the best for this business and the best for each other. And it's the first time I've had that. And. As much of a doer and a hard worker as I am, I was reminded yet again in the last couple years, I can't do it alone, so I could only go so far without having that team by my side. Now, I think we're, we're ready. We're ready to really decide what, what the future holds for us and how we want to [00:27:00] sell that story. Because while we have some basic vision and mission principles from the company, from a property perspective, we get to decide how we want to stand out and what's our reason for getting out of bed and going to work every day. And I'm actually taking them all for a couple of days. Off site in a couple of weeks for us to make some of those decisions and figure out how we're going to implement that from what we do with our team, what we do with the rest of the leadership team, our processes, our systems, our policies, et cetera. So JR, we are at the beginning of rebuilding what our culture is and determining how we're then going to move forward because with the exception of my executive team members, which are very experienced. In the gaming industry, the leaders below them are new to gaming, are new to their roles, and so we've been using a weekly leadership meeting to educate them, to talk about engagement, and what it is, and how you drive it, and what's your role, and Customer service. What are [00:28:00] the things that are important to our guests? And how do we make it come alive and how to read a P&L statement? And, you know, so how to interpret some of our policies that we weren't sure they understood completely, or that should be changed. So every week we have a different topic and we've been trying to educate them that way. but from a culture perspective, we're just at the precipice of deciding what that looks like. And then how do we make that come alive? at all levels of the organization. J.R. Flatter: No, that's amazing. One of the last times we saw each other in person, you were getting ready to go on a vacation. think it was a wine tour or something, if I remember correctly. How do you make time with all the requirements you have to take care of yourself? Amy Brennan: Well, I wouldn't say this is one of my strengths, on a week to week basis because this is a 24 7 business and it is, it is hard to feel connected to three shifts if you don't spend some amount of time on three shifts. I don't, certainly don't do it every week, but, [00:29:00] I make sure that I do take time off. I just book trips. I just schedule it and just book it and say, I'm going to be out. I do typically check my email once a day when I'm out of the office even, but that's only for, you know, do I need to approve something? Am I going to hold something up, purchase approvals or things like that? There is someone in charge, when I'm not here. I don't call them every day. I do tell them here's my availability and accessibility. like here's what time zone I'm going to be in. Try not to call me at 7 a. m. or after 5 p. m. I may have had too much of my wine tour to be able to make a good decision then. but it's a balance of, making the time for it, but also trusting in those who never want to let you down and letting someone who wants to be in this seat one day. Be in charge. J.R. Flatter: No, that's good stuff. Thank you so much. Lucas is our tradition. You get the last question. And Amy, I'm gonna tell you standby. 'cause this could come from anywhere. Amy Brennan: [00:30:00] Oh, Lucas Flatter: had a, I have a good one today, and so this is gonna sound silly, but, but I'm genuinely curious, um, do you believe in destiny, especially as, you know, somebody involved in random chance? Or, you know, are we in control? Amy Brennan: I don't know. I believe everything happens for a reason. I absolutely do believe that there have been times that, and it, the first time I came to this property is a great example. I was in Illinois and they called and said, we're opening a property. We don't have anybody that has any kind of experience. Will you go? Okay. So I'd only been there for six months, picked up and moved. And as a, that's a tough turnaround in six months. And I was only here for a year, but during that year, it was the first time in probably 15 years that I'd been this close. I grew up in Western Pennsylvania, and it's the first time I was close enough to be close to my family. And so I [00:31:00] spent I spent weekends when I could, driving back to see my family and coincidentally got a chance to spend a lot of time with my grandmother. And right before I left, my grandmother passed away. And that's when I, cause I thought, why, why am I in Perryville, Maryland? I realized if I would never been in Perryville, Maryland, I would have never had those precious moments that I got to spend with my grandma. More time than I had spent with her. Probably most of my life. so I do believe in good karma, by the way, I always do the right thing and do the kind thing because I feel like it comes back to you tenfold. but I believe everything happens for a reason. So I guess if you're calling that destiny, Then absolutely. I believe in destiny. Lucas Flatter: Excellent, thank you. [00:32:00]