How Coaching Can Transform Your Leadership & Your Culture | with Michelle Nash

Hey welcome everybody. This is Jr flatter. I'm the Chief Learning Officer at Two Roads Leadership. And this is our podcast Building a Coaching Culture. Our distinguished guest today is Ms. Michelle Nash. We're so happy to have you here. Thank you. JR Flatter: So Michelle, the format's really simple. I'll give you an opportunity to introduce yourself and brag about yourself a little bit. Tell us about your leadership journey, your coaching journey, whatever comes to mind. So the floor is yours. Ma'am. Michelle Nash: Well, thank you for the opportunity. And like you mentioned, I'm Michelle Nash. I am in Huntsville, Alabama, and I am working for a company called PZI international, which is for peoples zealously interconnected. And the role that I have with the organization is I'm the director of talent management and leadership development. So I have the extraordinary opportunity to work with a lot of organizations, both civilian and government to walk into those doors or windows, and really facilitate two behaviors in the workplace and how that. Everything and that coaching aspect of it is so huge of really what I'm finding and understanding to be where people are just being like a moth to a flame towards, in what's really needed. So my leadership journey and came into this because I need it. And I never knew this was here and my background is a communications major, but became a military spouse for 30 years, did a lot of positions where I thought I did a great job and found out to my demise, it was not so great of a job. And, um, I met Debbie McGee with PCI international. she was doing work for. PEO missiles and space, located in Huntsville and a general rash at the time was a champion of putting this entire program through his entire organization. And I was asked to come and sit on it because I was overseeing a not-for-profit military based organization from Europe to Asia, six regions in the United States with 25 people. Michelle Nash: And we were failing. And I walked in and after four hours, I just said, how do I get you where I need you to be? And after we got PZI to San Diego and I sat through what was being delivered, as it's not about your personality, you are who you are, but it's how your behaviors show up in the workplace. And a lot of that has to do with poor leadership in mentoring versus coaching. And what we need is really a lot of that coaching as opposed to always mentoring. And so, I came in, to PCI as a licensed practitioner with one assessment, which is insights, which is about behaviors by became certified in all of them. And then became the director. And now we hold a lot of contracts with governments. And one of the ones that we are currently doing is the pre command course at Fort Leavenworth, where my team and I fly in for a week every month. And we do leadership training to the command teams for, battalion command. So it's been awesome. And that's what we're doing. JR Flatter: okay. Great. Wow. That's a lot. So if you think about building, so building leadership, depth coaching. So not only getting a credit as coaching, but receiving external coaching coaching internally, and then culture development. So our audience or listeners are leaders. I think the leaders that you're working with who recognized to be. Competitive in this hyper competitive labor market or the 21st century, they have to develop a coaching culture. So talk to us those three separate areas, how you would weave them all together and actually build a coaching culture. Michelle Nash: It sounds more difficult than it is. And I think, you know, being, being in a lot of your. Your cohorts, if I should say, because you said brag on myself. Well, that's part of me bragging on myself. Great wisdom is that it's that willingness and ability. Right? And I think where I can speak to the audiences, I know is there's a lot of pressed leadership. You get into roles where this is what you do, because this is what you were told to do. And then all of a sudden you realize that. Your advice. Isn't always the best advice and allowing people, the innovation to come up with their own problem solving answers that they already have. And I think where the weaning comes out is that it gives people an opportunity and a platform to really talk out loud. And hear themselves going. That made sense. I sounded childish. What the heck was I thinking and walk out of somewhere going I'm part of this change. It's a big empowering place to be. And I think what I'm finding Jr, to somewhat of the answer that you're giving you the answer to the question. What the government and some of the civilian sectors and corporations have identified is that it's the behaviors in the workplace. And even within the government that are harmful to people, and it's just being told what to do and how to do it. Instead of allowing that a problem solving innovation place to come out where someone already has the answers and can do really good stuff. And to really be the person that. Allows people to no longer be handicapped. And I think that's a big place to be. JR Flatter: Now I forgot to introduce our co-host Lucas. He's our, uh, millennial host. So I'm the boomer. So I look at everything from the boomer point of view. Lucas brings that fresh perspective from the millennial point of view. What's going through your mind as you hear Michelle, talk about. Lucas Flatter: I guess the thing that really stuck out to me was, you know, that empowerment, empowering individuals to kind of come forward with innovative ideas and everything, because, you know, if you kind of just try to centralize that in your HQ or centralize that in your leadership, you're not going to get as many good ideas as, as he could from, you know, a bottom up approach. So that seems like a pretty good idea to me. JR Flatter: So talk to me a little bit about you seem excited to be on this coaching journey that you're on. What's so exciting about that before. Michelle Nash: So, first of all, let me just start out. I completely didn't even really understand the power of coaching. I always thought. that coaching was absolutely beneficial, but it was really for people that had really high levels of positions that needed to vent and needed to sit before someone and just kind of either share their stories or be affirmed in what they're doing. I'm going to pay someone to tell me what I want to hear. Honestly, JR Flatter: Yeah. Michelle Nash: I thought and. It has changed my entire leadership, how I speak to the people, even in my, office. And while I'm not a coach to anybody in my office, I can tell you I've taken on coaching. And I think that's, what's been amazing. And I can give a very quick example. Our president CEO came into my office and she said, Michelle, listen, I'm having a little gathering and it's really important. And I just really need your help of what I want to say. And the old me prior to my coaching journey would have said, oh great. You know, let me give you the words. I got them right here. And this is what I've been so privileged to now empower others. As I said, Well, why do you want to have this? And she proceeded to tell me why. And I said, well, that's pretty important. So what is important of this gathering to you? And she shared it and I said, well, there you go. You just gave your speech. And she was like, that's amazing. And I thought to myself, that took five minutes and she thanked me for two weeks. JR Flatter: Hm. Michelle Nash: A little coaching habit of my I've advised in my opinion would have been great. I probably could have given her a great little speech, but it wasn't her. It was me. And I started realizing this is what we're giving people the empowerment of of their contributions. And so this coaching journey for me, Jr has even opened up a whole new level of, even in my facilitating of bringing people to feel comfortable and confident enough to be vulnerable enough To share. And I think the coaching journey, what I'm, I really can say in this culture that you go back to that close question to ask me it's about vulnerability. And I think what has changed for a lot of leadership is to be vulnerable, would be weak, to be vulnerable, would be, you know, I can't show that about myself. The vulnerability is what creates the engagement and that is what has been the aha. for me JR Flatter: Yeah, you remind me of Brene Brown indare to lead. she tells the story about being with those special forces operators and ha how many of them are comfortable being vulnerable? And nobody raised their hand. And then she asked how many of you have ever seen an act of valor? Of course, many of them had. And so they raised their hands and she connected the dots for them. And just say, how many of those acts of valor required an active vulnerability and boom. She connected those two dots with them. Like, wow, so it's really interesting because we talk about the coaching magic all the time, but it's not really magical. There's just, we have a certain quoting Liam Neeson now, but a certain particular set of skills that allow us to listen and help them self-discover help them connect those dots. And it appears like magic. Michelle Nash: Yeah. And I think what I've really taken away a lot from this coaching journey, a lot of credit to the facilitation and the time that I've been spending with the people that share is, you know, how people take in information and process and how they make a decision is very different. And so. There's two places where those decisions come from, who does it impact and what does it impact? And I think what I've so appreciated and valued is watching the process of when someone is sharing the magic. if you will, of their own responses and they bounce back and watching their transitions happen, it's really wonderful. JR Flatter: Yeah, I think in a powerful coaching session, you'll hear things like, wow, that was a great idea. Thank you. Michelle Nash: And it wasn't yours at all. It came straight out of their mind and out of their mouth. Yes. And I think the other part that I really, I hope that everyone would take away is I think we all need a coach. I think that's what I'm taking away. And I think that the amazing part of all needing a coach is that it is important to hear yourself speak and have it brought back to you in a place that you would've never asked yourself. And I think that to, to deny yourself because of where you think oh, a coaching is for, for punishment because you're failing in the workforce. So you need a coach to get you to improve is get out of that. I would say, get that out of your mind. This is about where else can I go? What else have I have I have, where do I stand in my way? I know one day I had my coaching session with my coach and I didn't know what I had to bring. And she just said, well, tell me about your day. And I'm telling you that was probably one of the most powerful coaching sessions I ever had. Just tell me about your day and what came out of that day was pretty awesome. So I think the culture of allowing this to happen is people need to be heard. And sometimes you just have to hear yourself. Think you have to hear yourself. And it has to come back at you in a way that maybe you hadn't thought of it. JR Flatter: if you've been leading for 20 or 30 years and mentorship is your style or perhaps even centralized control, maybe autocratic. And we talk about a coaching style of leadership and having a coaching mindset. What would you tell across the old boomer? Like me? What do I need to do? Michelle Nash: So those two hats can cross over very quickly. And I think here's what I value about the coaching and versus the mentorship. There's a place for both and there's value for both. And I think the mentorship looks great in industry, right. It looks great in industry. Tell me what got you there? How did you get there? And there's no time crunch on that. It's very fluid, right? It can continue on and on and on. But the coaching culture is really about that improvement. Now, there is a timestamp on it. It doesn't mean the coaching relationship, but it means the timestamp of what you're getting out of it. And I think that that's on the person, not on you. And I really think that you have to look at it if you're the person that wants to sit and talk at 80% of the time, then mentoring is probably great for you. There's value. But if you're the person that wants to listen, A lot of that time, then I think, coaching is a great place for you. That's what my takeaways have been. And I, and I say this in, in what I get to facilitate, you know, walking into a lot of the boomers that I get. I get gentlemen that walk up to me Jr. That say, listen, Michelle, this is all well and good, but I've been doing this for 42 years. What if I don't want to change well, Jr. Right? That's your willingness and ability. That's your intersection. So it's a tool and a tool is only as good as you use it. And why would you not want to use this? Right. JR Flatter: Well, I think, you know, it's kind of existential in many ways because in the Lucas jumping here, I see if you don't, if you're crusty 42 year old, You're a 42 year leader. His company can't survive unless he adjusts to the 21st century. So what attracts world-class talent? How do you retain it and remain competitive? great resignations going on. it's a very gig economy, freelance. Michelle Nash: Yeah. JR Flatter: Lucas. How do you attract labor? How do you attract talent in this 21st century market? so I think part of it is, you know, what we've mentioned already is that there's misconceptions about, you know, emotional intelligence and vulnerability and, and yada yada, and. Kind of being able to reframe these ideas. They're not scary. They're not, you know, they're not going to make you look weak. Lucas Flatter: They're going to, provide these benefits, putting the benefits up front so that, you know, hopefully we can tear down some of those misconceptions and, it's almost like you have to market it externally to the people that you're trying to attract towards your company. And in saying like, you know, this is our culture. for a new people coming in, but then you also have to, you know, put it in an attractive way for the people that are already in the organization that might be, you know, apprehensive about these ideas. It's kind of like a marketing problem. JR Flatter: Oh, very much. So communication. We talk about it all the time. How do you sell the magic of coaching before someone's seen the magic of coaching? We just graduated a hundred plus coaches a few days ago, and they're all hardcore DOD leaders, Department of Defense leaders. A lot of them come in the door with this idea, like, okay, yeah, I'll do this. Michelle Nash: But if you see the remarks on their way out at graduation, it's just incredible. Like, like you said, you stated almost exactly what we hear over and over. Coaching change the way I lead way. I think the way I behave, I mean, Jr. I'm being a hundred percent honest, you know, in my coaching journey of coming in it's because of the contracts, we need to have ICF certified coaches. Right. So we gotta have that stamp. Never, ever, ever did I have the idea that this was going to change me. And you told us, I promise you it's going to happen. And I'm thinking I'm open to all of this. And I came in with, Okay. really? How much could it? And I think to be with leaders that really understand it now, really understand it and to watch what happens to them. It is transformational leadership. That is what coaching this coaching culture is leading to. And I think what I'm learning about why this matters is because people want to show up into organizations and industry to be contributors, not just to show up and do a job, but to really have meaningful purpose and contribute. This is the place where this can happen. And if you're a leader that knows a coaching style, those coaching habits, you are going to retain people left, right and center. You're going to have positions and people and opportunity all over the place. People are going to say, I didn't know a company or industry, like you existed. How do I stay here? How can I bring my friends here? That is what happens. JR Flatter: take your coaching at all for a second. And. Give us some advice on how to create a coaching culture. What does the first hundred days? look like Michelle Nash: I would say awkward. So I would say, you know, you've people, a lot of times that are coming in, if it's a forced thing that's the first thing they think about is I'm dreading this. I think the way that we're starting to do it in our own offices, because this is what's been powerful. The coaching habits have a couple of people, get those foundations, go through something and bring it in quietly, start doing it. Start showing people rather than telling people. And then all of a sudden people are using your words. Like, let's explore this, expand on this. What are your thoughts on that? Right. And then you start seeing where there's like this workforce multiplying. Then all of a sudden people are like, what Let's yes, let's get this in house. So you start, in my opinion, you have a couple of people that come in and then it's showing more than telling. And I think what we're finding right now, and this is off, this is my advice. What I think works really well is you find what we call your client practitioners, find some people in the organization that really believe in this, get them in there because people don't necessarily like people outside their organization coming in and telling them how to do it. But you grab the people that smell like the sheep sound like the sheep and the sheep and they start it. There's buy-in, it's in their house. Lucas Flatter: I had a question. About kind of something we touched on at the beginning about how coaching is perceived to be for the upper level management. How do you kind of shift towards the idea that, people that aren't in the C level positions, we need to invest in them internally or even people, you know, that are just getting started. Michelle Nash: Oh my gosh. Yeah, That's a good question. I think there are several ways, right? Like I think what happens is,I don't say incentive. I don't want to necessarily use incentives, but I think when you have those people that are mid managers or non managing supervisors, if you will, and you're like, Hey, this is something that, you don't have to solve your people's problems. We're going to take the burden off you. You're not there to solve their problems. You're there to empower them to come up with their own solutions. So we're going to take you through an opportunity of training. That's going to lessen that burden for you. Give back more time to you and not helping your people, but supporting your people. And I think if you bring it in more of it's something that's going to, Empower them. It's part of their training. I would almost say onboarding, like I think these companies should have, this is what you get. It's onboarding. It's a non-negotiable. Should happen. I went to our president. I'm like every single person in here needs coach just saying, we all need and get our people go. I'm not lying. I really said this every single one from our people that are part-time walking in the door because, you know, Those people that are part-time will become full-time. Those people that are whole time are now I'm going to see opportunity at other positions. I just see that we are going to be able to create more of that, um,cohort of a family within our group, as opposed to just employees. I really believe that a team, a true team effectiveness in our organization. Shared purpose and alignment. That's what you're getting. JR Flatter: Yeah, you remind me of Daniel Coyle's book, culture code, where he talks about the three things you need to create a strong culture, a sense of family, a sense of safety within the family, and then a sense of opportunity. So Lucas has your peers and the gen Z, and agenda of LA they're in school or. cause they're thinking about who do they want to work for? They're taking a hard look at those things. Labor economics is a very complex thing. And in labor economics, there's something called the compensating differential. So how long do I work? It's pretty standard. How much I get paid pretty standard. What does that compensation that isn't so tangible? And what we're finding is it's culture. Are they going to care about my personal and my professional achievement? Not do they just know my wife's name and the names of my children, but are they genuinely interested in my self development? My personal achievement, because they go so hand in hand, if you take care of the team, By taking care of their home life and encouraging that, not tolerating it, they're going to work. Their minds are clearer. They're more, so I think, you know, in, in the 21st century, I'm just absolutely convinced the compensating differential to attract world-class talent and retain and stay competitive is a coaching culture. Michelle Nash: I agree. And I think that what they're showing with this coaching culture right, is better mental health and that's, that's a hot button right now. So I think when you know that, and that's a real value to you. I mean, I feel good. I'm happy, good things are happening. People. Totally not going to leave and they're going to feel not disconnected and not dissatisfied. And they're gonna have a harder time saying no to you and walking out that door because they're afraid of what they're not going to get now. And they feel that sense of loyalty because you've invested in them. It's like the return on investment. That's what happens in that coaching culture. I heard once a gentleman said, if I were to tell you that I was selling my golf clubs, what would you say? And some people said how much. And he said, see if you really knew me, you'd say, why JR Flatter: Yeah, Michelle Nash: the coaching culture? JR Flatter: that's so cool because that's exactly what I thought. Why would you do that? Michelle Nash: Right. See you now. No, that's exactly where you would go. JR Flatter: that, I think that's one of my learning in the last 18 months or a year. Is that working more and more with gen Z? And I'm not sure how much this is prevalent in your generation, Lucas, conversations about mental health are as common as physical health or happiness. When I first started hearing that every time it would be a red flag like, whoa, I mean, you maybe need to pause, but now. That I know it's just a part of the life of the 21st century. it's pretty cool. Lucas Flatter: Based on what you, you're saying about, you know, that differentiating factor and you know, that can account for compensation. We've tried to address like, kind of the symptoms of that in the past with certain policies like, you can wear your jeans to work or something, but, but that's like a second level symptom of like, no, you can be who you are. Like at the office. You can be yourself. I think that's what coaching is more addressing than just like, on Fridays we're wearing jeans. JR Flatter: Yeah. Or yeah, they have hot dogs in the kitchen or tea. You can have all the hot tea. Michelle Nash: Yeah, no, I agree with you. And you know, and what I've, you know, in, in what I do and getting to work around some of the gen Zs and stuff, one of the things that I've heard is they're willing to take on what makes them happy, way more as minimalist than the money. And I think that's the difference, right? That can certain days it was. I outworked you. So I've out, I've got finance you in that sense. I'm, I'm compensated in the success for me is money. And I think this is what it goes to two in the coaching cold Colt coaching culture is how are we defining success? And I think that's what coaching allows people to really come to terms with and embrace. Gosh, I thought success is this and it's not. And for me, this is how it looks. And now I'm ready to go this way. JR Flatter: Yeah, that's another thing we talk a lot about in our, in our cohorts is building our house of leadership and then facilitating the building. Of the leaders that you work in, their house of leadership, not being judgmental, allowing them to style it the way they want and form it. And when you're a coach, it's all about their house. It has nothing to do with your house. What are your principles? What are your work family self? What is your vision? Early on when we first started the cohort that you're a part of in the evenings. we did a case study of one of my coaching relationships and we found out very quickly the reason that the leader I was working with was so frustrated was I was putting my house a leadership on top of his saying, what do you mean you're ready to. Going this direction. It's obvious you need to go in this direction. And when I got, coached by the cohort in real time, and it became very clear, very quickly, that's exactly what I was doing. Michelle Nash: There was that conflict, right? That conflict between that perceived possibly leadership from both angles. Yeah. it was infringing on. JR Flatter: So, uh,one of the requirements of being a distinguished guest on this podcast is you have to give up one of your secrets, one of your secrets of success. Michelle Nash: Gosh. See, that's a good question. What is one of them? secrets of success. I think for me, In leadership, I've always understood that a leader is important, but a great leader knows it takes a team to deliver. And I think what without ever knowing that I was coaching, I think the one thing that I've always really thought about is get out of my way and. Futuristic of the fact that I've always thought it was kind of that humility of, I want to build a bench of workforce multipliers. I never want to keep the work that I do protective because I believe in distributed distributive ship. And I think the success. for me Jr in doing that is that I realized that in does. It just makes you look good, but a lot of people don't realize that. And what I started realizing in that secret was it'd be easy to go and do things I want to do and I'm passionate about, but when you bring that team with you, you go farther. And for me, I travel with the pack. That's my leadership style. I travel with a pack and I I'm a firm believer in immediately building people up and getting that transferred skill or knowledge sent out to everyone. Contribution. I don't know if that's a JR Flatter: It's beautiful. Michelle Nash: but It's worked for me. JR Flatter: So, you've just reminded me of, the situational leadership quadrant. You know, building people up. And you mentioned already willingness and ability, and we've already talked about everybody gets to build their own house and do they want to be technical? They want to be cognitive. They want to be emotionally intelligent leaders. None of those right or wrong just is. So when you're building that team and I think I know the answer to this. How do you find the home for all of those people? Michelle Nash: Gosh, that's hard. I want to tell you, I think part of that, I've had a lot of struggle along the way, and I think sometimes what I've done in that team is talk about how some leadership, I see potential in people very quickly. What I, what I cannot do for people aside from see their potential is get them excited and do all that. But I can't help with their drive and I can't help with their motivation if they're not willing to develop themselves. And so what do I do with all those people? I have ad-ons we build additions, right? That how some leadership gets additions build to it. and I, I say this, that I think while it's been a success for mine, it's also been something through coaching. I'd come to identify. That is really been a struggle from army of mine. There's only so much room in JR Flatter: Yeah. Michelle Nash: as. JR Flatter: So another one of our traditions, the last question. Lucas Flatter: All right. So, um,something that I really appreciate is, you know, like analogies between movies and books and whatever you're consuming on the regular and bringing that into like work or school. So has there been anything that, that seems unrelated to coaching and leadership, that you've experienced recently that kind of made a light bulb go off for you? Michelle Nash: Unrelated. Like, Lucas Flatter: Like you read a book or you watched a movie or you said, oh man, that's a really good point. I'm going to bring that to my work. Michelle Nash: Oh, that's a good question. gosh, let me think about that for a minute. Okay. That cause I have a lot going through my mind, so I gotta really think about this. Yes. I read the Lincoln highway. I just read this book by Amor Towles. And what was really interesting is there was a comment in there and it said kindness is necessary when needs end. Lucas Flatter: Hmm. JR Flatter: Say that again? Michelle Nash: Kindness is necessary when needs end. Meaning when a need is being met, but there's no, like, I think of like maybe a homeless person. Right. They get everything they need, but there's something else that could be there. That's where kindness steps in Yeah. I read that and I went, wow. That's a really good thing to say. I wrote it down even. Thank you. That made me think for a minute. JR Flatter: Well, thank you for those kinds of words. And thanks for being here. This Michelle Nash: Well, thank you for inviting me. I know you have tons of people, so I'm actually very flattered that you would as flat or invite me into the podcast. JR Flatter: let's go.