It's Not About Me: How Supporting Your Team Builds Great Culture | with John Murphy

J.R. Flatter: Hey, welcome back everybody. It's JR Flatter and this is Building a Coaching Culture. As usual, I'm here with Lucas, my co-host. Lucas Flatter: Hello. J.R. Flatter: I'm down Florida this week on a three city road trip. Started in St. Louis, Kansas City, and now I'm in Fort Lauderdale Our special guest, our distinguished guest, is our good friend John Murphy, coming to us from County Claire Ireland. John Murphy: Everyone. Kk, which is a hundred thousand welcomes in Ireland, J.R. Flatter: Yeah whatever you said, So just to remind everybody, who we are and what we're doing, we're talking about building a coaching culture. So here we are in well into the 21st century, attracting and retaining world-class talent in this hyper-competitive labor. And John is I'll let you introduce yourself cuz you could do it much better than I could. we're talking to leaders of complex organizations who competing and succeeding in this environment. So I'll pass the floor to you, sir, and you can introduce yourself and John Murphy: Hi, actually, I'm John Murphy, based on the west coast of Ireland, along the Atlantic Wild Atlantic Way. I spent over 30 years working in corporate organizations, starting off in, in, small tech company, and then actually moving into the financial services sector within. General Electric, the capital. I worked on the aircraft policing side, so it was a low volume height ticket business. But I mean, I suppose the part was applicable for both points actually is the importance of the people and, you know, given people the tools that they need to be able to go along and actually work. But like I say, I, in many roles, actually up to eventually being a CTO or Chief Technology officer within the company I was in, moved into the HQ side, and then I actually started. Running a, end user experience across 55,000 users and eventually actually was running a small p and l in Europe providing infrastructure services to, eight or nine different sub businesses. Many of them actually in the banking sector. So a lot of, regulations around it, a lot of, complexity around, different countries, different cultures, and the interaction that needed to. It was that idea of actually trying to provide productivity and efficiency while also ensuring that the people had time to work on the real value add. From a business pronunciation perspective, I suppose recently, actually, my role actually came to an end in 2018, actually, when GE decided to sell off ge. And I spent a lot of the last two or three years of my career,going along and, divesting, you know, those 35 different deals that took place in excess of, 250 billion. So, I mean, it was a large, engagement that actually took place. But again, all of that, the reinforcing thing behind a whole lot of it actually is the importance of the people and how you treat the people and how you look after the people. Because it's that idea of, you know, from a cultural perspective It's not what you say or what you've written down actually on your values boards. It's how you behave, how you treat them, how you respect them. That's what culture is really about. It's what's happening when you're not looking at them. It's what's happening behind all those closed doors. will they still behave the same. So that's a key one for me from a learning perspective, which I try to go along on. Again, embrace and adopt actually as it comes into the 14. J.R. Flatter: Yeah. What an incredible career. John Murphy: The gray hairs are natural, JR. J.R. Flatter: well earned, right? One, one at a time. I've started coloring my hair. So yeah, you've had an incredible career and now you're a coach. of all the leadership fads that have come across your desk and those decades, talk to us about what's different about. Why you're so passionate. John Murphy: Yeah. I suppose from the early, like I started off in the eighties to nineties, two thousands. I went through, productivity project management, lean Six Sigma teams, improvement, innovation. I mean, you name it actually been there. But the whole driver behind all of them actually is the importance and the need for change and continuous change that actually, in order to go along actually to. You actually have to be willing to change. If you go stationary at any point, you end up actually falling behind. And I made a key part around change that I've always actually found, and even more so, the latter end when it became, I suppose more near the bleeding end, was the importance of communication. And communication actually has two parts to it. It's listening to what people are actually saying and then communicating in a message actually in a way. You're giving them a clear message and direction of where you're going, what their role is in making that way forward. But what's in it for them if they do it? and also what's in it if they don't do it. So, I mean, that's kinda setting the clear expectations. It's account accountability, it's assigning ownership. But like it's also empowering people so that they can actually go along and be. And when it comes to the leadership side of that, it's that part of actually, moving away from the micromanagement type mentality. Cause no one actually has the time for that anymore. and that's the part actually whereby going off and helping leaders, become more leading by example and leading by, you know, recognizing what do I need to do as a leader to help the people who work with me and for me succeed. Their success is part of my success as well. If they don't actually succeed, then I'm not gonna necessarily succeed in what I need to do. So it's that partnership that needs to happen where leaders need to go along and actually stop looking at me and my, and all of that and start looking at ours and what can I do to support our team has been. Lucas Flatter: Yeah. And it sounds like, you're kind of describing where you kind of empower the individuals and then. Maybe those lean six processes and those kind of like more bound, like methodologies, maybe you don't need to follow them as strictly if you have like the individual building blocks. So can we talk about that a little bit, like how the, formal organization kind of interacts with like more empowered individuals in coaching. John Murphy: it's a great point you're making. Cause it's a double-edged sword. It's that part of actually, how do you go along and have governance in place by having, you know, set processes and procedures, but also having the flexibility and the adaptability to go along. Actually recognize you can't account for every situation. But there are times actually where, I'm not saying you necessarily paint outside of the lines, but I mean, you paint maybe closer to them than you would normally. And what I mean by that is that when it comes to things like innovation and transformation, I think a big hurdle actually that a lot of people face is, well, how is it going to impact me? You know? And when you hear words like a productivity and efficiency, unfortunately for a lot of people it's, it is my job safe. When it comes to a ba, when you look at the bigger picture, which is where sometimes actually is not, you know, you need to actually stand back as a person or as a leader, as a manager. Look at that, actually say, well, if I start looking the inefficiencies that are in the, process at the moment, if we were to go along and actually get rid of those, imagine what the time saved could be used elsewhere to add value to the company. So is that part of Actually, I. Again, looking at how is it going to impact me and will my job be safe? Is look at by doing this, what are the opportunities that will actually come up or crop up as part of this, you know, will it make my job easier to do actually and allow me to go along and focus on the things, you know, spite to that idea, again, if I'm doing this, what am I not doing? And is that what I'm not doing actually more important than the stuff that's on my plate at the moment? It's very easy to fall into that kind of safe bucket of, actually, I love working on this, so I'll prioritize that and I'll actually move the other stuff down to the bottom of the list. But it's also our part actually. If the things at the bottom of the list are a higher priority from a business deliverable, then you have to go along, actually look at putting that up on the list. And prioritization is always a big challenge. Time management is a key. Like, it's also for some people, especially on the leadership side, it's recognizing that by having these policies and procedures in place, you're safeguarding the people that are actually doing these things. But you also need to allow for that kind of scenario where it's not going to fit every situation. So are the rules of engagement for going outside of those lines? What needs to actually happen so you're not letting people on the road where they could actually fail because of. steps or rules that weren't applied, but how do you give them the flexibility to go along and make the necessary changes, which are for the better of the company, but doing it in a compliant way? it takes you years to build your reputation. You can actually lose it overnight or in a matter of minutes, actually, depending on what the activity. J.R. Flatter: you talked about change in people. I'm working with a hospitality company here in America, and one of the phrases from yesterday was this leadership thing would be easy if it wasn't for the people. And, You talk about people and change and you know, oftentimes people get their lives disrupted by that change. when I was in Australia a couple weeks ago, there was this massive layoff of this gigantic company. Suddenly thousands and thousands of very qualified, capable, hardworking people are out of a job. And I'm. I'm sure that happened in your transformation. How do you as a leader, take care of people in those situations? John Murphy: Great point there. And again on this one, I can speak from experience cuz my role actually in GE Capital did come to an end. I was told I was no longer required. GE had been told of GE Capital. So maybe a slightly different story, but an awful lot of it actually is back to that idea of, I was getting across to your. or to your customer. Actually, you know, this is not an ideal situation. It's not necessarily the future. You'd have actually picked yourself at this point in time, but what opportunities does this allow you now that may have been on the back burner in your mind for the last weeks, months, and years, especially from the time you've actually heard about the upcoming layoffs. What sort of things are now possible that. I suppose the obstacle, I was there before. I mean, it's your full-time job, I suppose. Maybe a little bit more than that, but it is that part where people kind of fall into a nice, comfortable, job that they're actually working on. I'm working whatever it is, 40, 50 hours a week, getting paid on a regular basis, enjoy what I'm doing most of the time. But like, you know, there's also that part of. Trying to work out actually what I wanted to be when I was in my twenties is a lot different than what I wanted to be in my thirties, forties, fifties, actually, as I got older. And I mean an awful, that actually is also reflective on what my circumstances were at the time. And I mean like a program that you were actually doing, around leadership actually is like, is that work on the self balance? And I mean, the way you actually phrased it, I think, which is excellent is work, is the w family is the f and self is the. Those letters change in size depending where you are. But like at the start, when you're starting up your career, an awful lot of your focus actually is on the work side and making sure that I can actually build my career. As you get older, your priorities change, especially when family comes into play, all of a sudden actually it's how can I spend more time with my wife or my partner? How can I spend more time with my kids? And then, there's also that part where you get to a point where You've stopped trying to go along and prove yourself to others, and you get comfortable enough in your own skin to say, I'm good enough. That's a huge learning or tipping point because all of a sudden actually you've stopped paying more attention to what's going on all around you, and you start focusing on what's important to me. And I would've said to you, for anyone actually that's going through any of these, changes The earlier that happens to you better because, it goes by very quickly. I spent 30 years in General Electric, it feels like, you know, a week and it feels like an eternity, what was actually happening at the time. But you know, it's how can you as a leader start making time for each person? By the way, cause this is also part of the challenge. No two people are the same. So how you react to that type of, Versus how I react to be talking cheese. I mean, sometimes people need to go along and actually kind of sit back and work it out in their heads as to, what exactly does this mean? It's a bit like, you know, when you lose someone and someone actually passes away, it's the grieving process and all the different steps that need to actually happen. As part of that, this being told you're no longer required, being told your job is no longer valued in the company, or that you are no longer valued in the. Can be herb shattering. But you know what, there's also that part of me and maybe this may be, innocence on my, I always think actually what's meant for you won't pass you by. And in those circumstances it's actually, this again, is a knowledge actually, like it's not important actually how often you fall. It's important actually how often you get up and actually take the next step. And by the way, it only takes one. to take the next pathway down. So it's the importance of dealing with the shock because it will be that, it's importance of actually then kind of sitting down with the person who will actually work out what's important for them. Where are they in their stage of life? What are their priorities and how can you as a leader, help. Get to that next step. So like, guess your job doesn't stop actually when you told 'em they're no longer required. If you are actually being a proper leader, you actually should be there going out and trying to focus and ensure that every person you're working with ends up landing somewhere else, ideally and ideally in something that they really want to do. Cause that was the part actually, again, we were told, you know, I had something like 200 people working, for me at the time when we were actually told as GE Capital has been sold. They were all part of the HQ staff, so there was never going to be a role for them. I remember actually saying to my boss, I said, listen, if I start this, I'd like to, I'd like to finish it. So I said, I don't wanna be one of the first people to let go, or I could find jobs somewhere else. I wanted to go along actually and see the halfway through. It meant keeping the lights on, but it also meant actually working with each and every person to work out what was best for them. No offense to the HR team. Actually, my, their focus actually was how do we go along actually make this as seamless, as painless as possible. But I mean, they had the big GE capital hat on them at the time, right? So that was their focus. Me, actually, I saw each of these people as people. It wasn't your nine digit number. It was jr. It was Lucas, it was Tom, it was Mary, it was, and I mean, all of these people actually, how can we help them transition to the next opportunity And actually get them to kind of focus on the cup is half full rather than half empty. It didn't work with everyone, I'll be honest with you. There were some people actually that like me they went into, dare I say, actually some went into dark places. But I mean, thankfully they all got through it. And I mean now if you look at it in hindsight, I'd have said to you that probably 90% of them said it was the best thing that ever happened to them. Not at the time, but looking back at it in. hindsight Because it made them rethink their life was about, where they are, what was actually in front of them. And I mean, again it's nice to be look back like, you know, 1, 2, 3 years on actually and say, yeah, I'm glad it happened. It didn't feel that way for the first one, two, or three weeks. I can guarantee that , you know, maybe that's when the gray hearts started kicking in the first place. They are. I don't know, sir. I dunno. J.R. Flatter: it's ironic because I have. Kuala Ross grief cycle open in front of me. whenever I think about change, I think about the grief cycle. And you've described this denial, anger, bargaining, depression oftentimes. And then finally, acceptance. So when we're asking people to change, we're actually asking them to go through that grieving process. It's very natural as a human being to resist that. John Murphy: As part of that as well, the ones actually that kinda seem to take it in stride. There's always that kind of maybe light bulb moment in the back or that red light in the back of my head actually, that says are they nearly being too accepting of it? And that's like, are they actually really dealing with what's in front of them or are they just kind parking it to one. side Because parking, it doesn't solve the problem. And I mean, sometimes actually that can come along and actually raise its head in future, activities that actually happen to them. Like if something actually really bad happens to you when you're young, sometimes actually that can be triggered at different points to your life for forever reason. And they kind of put you back. You need to relapse back to where you What you actually didn't with their problems. So it's great when people can come along and actually cope with it, but it's also worth asking the question on a regular basis, is everything okay? And I'm not asking about your job and I'm not asking about the family. Is everything okay with you? It's an important question to be asking on a regular basis. And by the way, it doesn't actually have to come from a coach, it doesn't have to come from a leader, it can come from anyone actually network That idea of, especially when you know someone is actually going through, tough times. You're not trying to be nosy or find out what's going on, but in, you know, it's all okay if you ever need to chat, whatever, you know, those are things actually where it makes you a better person and it's probably something you can relate to a lot more when you've been through that stress or when you've been through that grief. Who, will honestly know you know there's someone who is n noticing that I exist and they're also actually taking enough time to actually ask me am I okay Lucas Flatter: you had mentioned earlier kind of mindset shift where it's, I'm valuable, it's not just I'm doing good work or, you know, it's me as an individual that's, you know, valuable in this company and I'll be valuable in my next role. And you think about all. Work and planning and, you know, thought that goes into compensating, talent and trying to retain talent with dollars, when pretty much the goal is to have that person feel valuable is there a way that companies can think about, making people feel that way and creating that culture where it's a return on investment you're seeing, you know, You're spending less money on that compensation potentially, or what do you think about that? John Murphy: great question Lucas. It is actually, how do you show each individual that they're being valued and respected? Because I mean, for some people actually whether it's a bonus or extra cash or whatever can make a big difference depending on, again, what they're asking our life cycle. But for an awful lot of. people Something as simple as a thank you is very important, especially if it's coming from your manager or your manager's manager, even more so. But sometimes actually, rather than just saying thank you, it's explained to what they did and what was actually picked up as part of it, but like, this is what I saw you do and this is actually the benefit that we're seeing from it. But I mean, sometimes something I might take for granted in doing. it Could actually have a higher impact with my manager or my manager's manager than, you know, putting out the fires. that's a one actually where I saw you do this, it resulted in this, and guess what? This is the benefit that we actually, that value we actually see from it. Because what's that's also doing actually is telling me this is the sort of behavior that they're actually noticing. This is the sort of thing actually that I did and I didn't necessarily take. Appreciate actually what I was actually doing at the time. So I was kind of recognizing why is huge, you did this on the flip side of that I should say, is also the case. Like that when you see a behavior that's not, appropriate or whatever, or someone actually making a mistake, it's doing that real time. as soon as the opportunity allows, or rather than trying to throw someone under the bus in front of a. It's kind of taking him or her to one side and actually explaining, listen, I saw you actually do this. I'm not exactly sure. I don't have the background to it, but, you know, we didn't necessarily get the results that we wanted or something actually happened that we hadn't allowed for. if you to do it again, what would you consider doing differently? You know, so it's rewarding the good behaviors and explaining. And also coming on actually pick up on the problems. Cause again, I've used this line with JR once or twice actually with regard to, you know, I'm talking about new business and stuff like that. I often go into people actually and say, you know, I put down problem solver as my signature and I ask people what problems you have. Listen, everything is great here. I mean, you know, we're making loads of money and people are all happy and happy days. Like, you know, I dunno why you're here at all. And then I actually said, listen, you mind me asking, I said, what are you looking to stop tolerating that you've tolerated up to? That's the one actually where you can see the light bulb come on. Because I guarantee it every person has that one thing that they're pushing under. I'll get to it next week, or I'll get to it next month, or I prefer not to. And I mean, those are the sort of ones actually where if that is not dealt with in a timely manner, all of a sudden goes around that person or lack of action come along as she's start wearing is. What type of behavior acceptable is that? The sort of thing actually that, you know, I can actually do without coming along and you know, I make a mistake, but no one's gonna notice it, so I won't bother. I continue making mistakes, I don't have to worry about that. So it is, it's back to communication again. It's telling people, I saw this is what I liked about it. Please keep doing it. Or, this has actually happened. I'm not necessarily sure you have all the background to it, but would you mind me explaining to me what actually happened and more I. What would you do differently the next time to go on if you do it? I mean, it's like coaching. I mean, for some people actually, a manager actually decided to issue you with a coach. First thing that goes on my head is, what should I do wrong? You know, I need to go on, actually this is, I've been penalized actually for something, so I need to actually find the course to do it. But you need to be getting across. Listen, Lucas, we actually see you as a valuable resource in the company in order to help you develop, we're going to assign you a coach. We're gonna spend money on actually helping you develop, right? These are, as part of that, actually identify the things that you do well and keep doing them. as fact, I, how can you go along actually and apply those principles to others around you where you actually see that they could actually develop from that type of a thing. But I mean, likewise, actually there's always something. I hate using the word person development. It's consider changing is a better way to do it. So rather actually keep doing this, you can't continue doing the same thing and expect a different outcome. So what can you change that would allow you to go along and be a better person, be a better manager, be a better leader than you are now? Cause you know, like I said, I'm fortunate enough to say I'm good enough as I am, but that doesn't mean I can't. Like, you know, recognizing that you know every person that you're working with, you're doing a great job. We actually really appreciate what you're doing. Is there stuff you'd like to do? is there something actually that we don't know of from a capability perspective, that you want to go along, needer look at, or improving or bring to the table that we haven't used up to now? Because it, it's the part and let's sorry for the long-winded answer. It is that part of, actually, you have to ask the question of what's working? What can we do differently? And if you, once you ask the question, you have to do something with it. Or like, is that part of, you know, well these things actually great ideas will gonna go along as you develop them further and maybe look as, you could be part of the team that actually work on that. Or you might even take over ownership of those. But it's also important actually to say, well, listen, these are great ideas, but unfortunately they don't align with the priorities we have. So we may need to part them until we do have bandwidth to go on, as you take those on. But communication is huge. Little thank yous, I mean, I'll give you a beautiful one. Ashi for us. 250 people. 300 people actually in the building. And during the summer, the social committee had organized for an ice cream plan to pull up outside the building. 30, 40, 50 year olds going. You look at the ice cream, it was the best half hour of socializing and energizing that I've actually seen in a long time. Small daughters, but it actually had a huge goodwill thing on it. Having a pizza luncheon where people come in and sit down and talk. You know, the first chats actually are great to go along and actually start a conversation going, but once you get people in the room, don't talk at them. Let them interact. Let them come along and actually be part of what's going on. Explain to 'em where we're trying to get. And guess what? I don't have all the answers. The leadership team doesn't have all the answers, but with your help, we hope to get there. Now, how can you help? J.R. Flatter: What I indirectly hear you describing is so that we have formal coaching relationships, so external coaches like Lucas, you and I coaching. But also building internal coaches. And then the third is, and this is all contributory to building a coaching culture, is a coaching style of leadership. And that's what I hear you describing is that curious, exploratory style of leadership. Did that come natural to you or John Murphy: I was perfect. I was perfect for the start there. It was never a problem for me. Listen, I come from a technology background and I like, you know, problem solving. If you tell me you have a problem, I'll actually go off and, Turnover the every mountain under or every rock to go along. She come up with an answer for it. But my father actually had a great saying. He said, you have two ears and one mouth for a reason. And it is that part actually of the importance of listening, of kind of asking the questions, let people come along. And I see you kind of. Where do you need to get to? I mean, you can put out the, you can put out the feeders there to go long and understand what's important. But humility is a huge part of when a leader stops, takes the focus from them and puts it on everyone else. And I mean, when you can go along actually and get people to explain, like someone like yourself, if you actually took into a room and explain to people actually how you become the successful person that you are, that actually will become along and actually show people that, Success can be measured in different ways or an awful other people actually comes down to the bottom line. In order to go along actually and make money, you gotta go along and actually have a business that recognizes all of the assets that are there that actually make it a success. And one of those assets actually is the people. And it's the part actually of, helping people to obtain that mindset. Lucas mentioned earlier on. What can I do to make this company successful, but what can I help others do to make them successful as well? it's coming along actually and realizing that I have my role to do and everything like that is within my control. But there are other people actually that have a dependency on me and what I actually. and I need to be going along. Like instead of just keeping my head down actually and thinking about me, I need to be looking at the bigger picture and where I can contribute elsewhere to actually be successful. But like also it's where can I see opportunities elsewhere for them to go along and actually do something differently as well. And it's kind of being, it's allowing the openness to go along as you have those conversations where like if someone says to. I saw you actually do something yesterday actually. Had you considered actually doing it a different way instead of me going under defensive to go along actually and say, well, how dare you come along and actually tell me how to do my job. It's coming along actually and saying, I hadn't thought of it that way. You know it. No, it doesn't mean I remember my manager actually, or my boss come along telling me again, I gone into a senior role at the time. He says, John, he says, I'll always listen to what you have to say. It doesn't necessarily mean I. You know, action. But I mean, allowing people to go along actually and voice their opinion to share it is important. And it's even more so actually as you Right. Move up the ranks because I mean, part of your thing is not just because of the job you do is actually how you can influence people around you When you go into those meetings where like you kind of feel there's possibly a bit of an imposter. I'm afraid to go along and say anything in case I show myself up. Well, you know what? Chances are if it's actually not clear in your head, I'm guarantee it there's others in the people in the same room are actually having the same problem. But it's okay to put up your hand and ask that what seems like a silly question without, assuming that you're gonna get, devalued because of it. Or like there's vulnerability required. There's the requirement to share feedback about positive and negative. And by the way, the other part actually, which is critical, is that if someone actually does raise some sort of compliance issue, that it's treated with respect respectfully, but under no circumstances, actually cannot be, in negatively invite the person who raised the question, even actually if it was turns out actually not to be the case. You can come along actually and tell people that we want you to go along actually and give us good feedback and bad feedback, but if someone gives you the feedback, you don't want that, you'll then actually punish them first. That will, again, it's where the actions and the words are contradictory to each other. Lucas Flatter: yeah, you kind of mentioned, those opportunities where you have like, you know, your ice cream part of your pizza gathering, and it almost seems like, you know, This, these relationships are building through like, you know, happenstance, but somebody's behind the scenes, like kind of pre-planning that th that stuff it makes me think about, my three-year-old was just on his Nintendo and randomly it starts playing like a trailer for a new product. And I'm like, what? Like he's three years old and they're like marketing directly to him and like by accident. And it's like he's having fun and he thinks it's a toy, but I'm like, whoa. how do you create those kind of happy accidents where it seems like fun, but it's deliberate. John Murphy: Actually, it's funny when you mentioned that about your son, actually all of a sudden, actually influencer was actually popping into my head. I mean, this is a guy in the future here, actually. He's, I'm not sure actually what the advertisers were coming in or whether he happened to be turning them on when you were actually within earshot. I'm going give him the benefits, the doubt actually that he knew what was there. The company I worked with, right. Like I said, it was a large financial services company, heavily regulated. We provided white glove service. It was very business focused. It was very, process driven. It was all of that type of stuff there. But you have to try and get the, I'm gonna. Balance. Actually, I was told, I told recently, actually, that balance is the wrong word to use because balance actually means that you're one is conflicting with the other. And I think that it is work life blend, I think is what people are saying these days because it is actually, how do you go on actually get the mix right? Having a social, like a social committee or a group actually that are focusing on, I suppose, enhancing networking outside of. boardroom or outside of the meeting rooms, like focusing on allowing people to see the other side of the in individual that they're working with. So it's not always the person in the office that's doing the PowerPoint presentations or they're doing the present the pitches or doing all of the hard work. you have family. Knowing about your kids is huge because all of a sudden I see, I get to know you better than actually doing. What are your interests? What do we have in common? You know, I mean, I try to play golf. I use it as an excuse to go along and actually get some exercise and a fresh air, but it also actually gives me unbridled access to three other players where we can talk about anything. Right? And I have to say, some of the most constructive business meetings I've actually had, especially when it comes to vendor management, have happened on. Because you're taking someone out of the constraints of I have to wear my professional, be professional within this space here to where they start being authentic and being themselves. Because if you can actually get that or build that into a relationship and the relationship part actually is a huge part of it, that actually will go a long way towards being able to get people to prioritize the bo the work things that need to actually happen while dealing with. Family itself as part of that scenario as well. I do a thing actually around emotional intelligence and it's down. That idea of how you show up impacts how people feel, how they feel impacts how they engage and how they engage actually impacts the whole relationship. If I can actually show up to you at a meeting on Monday and actually say, how's your son doing? Or he, I heard he was actually playing football at the weekend outta the Mexico. All of a sudden, actually both of us. Are starting off on a, level playing field, because I'm taking the time to Actually check on your family, but I mean, likewise, you know that I heard what you told me last Friday, and I remembered this morning to go along, to actually ask you the question. So it's those types relationship building that you can have on the social activity side. Now, the worst thing that can possibly happen to, that you mention. Processes and procedures, it can't turn into a bureaucratic process where you're actually doing it from a box taking exercise. Right? if you're actually having the pizza there or something like that, have it for a reason. How about to either celebrate something that happen, which by that way, that doesn't happen often enough. And awful. The businesses actually are so busy these days that no sooner they finish something, even when it's successful, they move on to the next thing. Taking the. Go along. Celebrate wins is huge. Also, by the way, taking time to go along actually and maybe review, or evaluate actually where things went wrong, can be a huge learning opportunity. And then again, those are sort of the ones that sometimes they can happen, more openly over a cup of coffee sitting at the, you know, in the restaurant or sitting actually in the coffee house. Then it happens in your manager's meeting room or whatever. So, focus people actually on looking for opportunities where they can actually socialize within the environment or actually externally, but make it meaningful for what they're doing. And if you don't mind, I'm gonna use one, one example here personally, myself, my daughter actually was born 12 weeks premature. She was two pound, two ounces, a thousand grams. She was in hospital for 17 weeks in, in the neonatal unit in Limerick. And one of the things actually I always said was I'd love to go along and actually do a fundraiser for her. It happened, actually, there was two other girls in the company that come along and, they're actually on the social committee. And we come along and actually started looking at things and there was a 10 k walk run happening in, in the local university as a fundraiser on the local, organiz. And we came along, she, and we said, wouldn't it be great if we come along, maybe get 10, 20 people take part in this and maybe raise 5,000 euros? Actually, we'd have a go at it anyway. We ended up actually where, between members of the company and family friends, we had over 90 people took place in the run. We raised 35,000 euros and we had a barbecue. That was probably one of the best events we actually had in the 20 years. Obviously it was in the. And that was actually all from a small idea by way. I didn't instigate it by the way someone else actually mentioned to me. I just was willing to go along actually and do something about it because it meant something to me. So where you can actually find opportunities where people have skin in the game, it means something to them. That's the part actually where the sky's the limit You have no idea actually what you can get out of these things until you.