Cultivating Authenticity in a Coaching Culture | with Dhanesh Singh

Building a Coaching Culture - #78: Cultivating Authenticity in a Coaching Culture | with Dhanesh Singh === BCC_078 === Dhanesh Singh: [00:00:00] What's important at the end of the day. And for me, at the end of the day, it's spirituality that reminds us of our values that keeps us focused and centered J.R. Flatter: Hey, welcome back everybody. JR Flatter here with my co-host Lucas, Lucas Flatter: Hello. Good morning. J.R. Flatter: and today we have a very distinguished guest, Danesh Singh, who is right now in Sydney, Australia. but a bit of a world traveler. , thanks for being here. It's always great to [00:01:00] have, our friends from Australia. Just point out to everybody. It's 11 o'clock at night where you are. Actually, I, I have a, event in Japan at midnight tonight. So you and I are gonna be on opposite ends of the, of the spectr. you're midnight, your time for us, and I'm gonna be midnight for them or just, , refresh everybody's memory and, and let . Danish, we're talking to leaders of complex organizations who you're very familiar with as a non-executive director. we're trying to compete and succeed in this 21st century global labor market. the reason you and I know each other is because of that global labor market. And so Lucas and I work trying to create a coaching culture, which a good bit about as well. So I'm gonna pass it over to you and, I want you to Tell us about yourself and don't be hble. I know you to be hble, so, Dhanesh Singh: It's a difficult one. , we try to be hble. That's what we taught, from a very young age. so [00:02:00] thank you. I'm really delighted to be here. Thanks for the opportunity. honored. to be on this podcast with the two of you. I guess a bit of background, about myself. Identity is a very important aspect about who I am. I am a third generation South African Indian. I. Thought I'd just put that out there. So, , the reason why I say that is, , my people about 150 years ago were brought over in the ships, in the slave ships over from India, I'm from Originate from the south of India. And, , they were brought over to work in the sugarcane plantations in South Africa. For the farmers back then. So, that's my history, , it's really something that's very important to me. it's very much a part of my roots. So, , identity is absolutely critical because we were somewhat of a lost generation, as much as I'm Indian, I can be unin Indian at times [00:03:00] because of the fact that I was, , third generation born in South Africa and I'm very South African, by the same token. And, 16 years ago, I had the good fortune of moving over to Australia, the lucky country. I'm very, happy to be here. I came over working for the, prudential regulator, that's the banking and financial services regulator of Australia. So I was, , fully sponsored by, that organization. And, , that's after working for about 17 years in the banking industry in South Africa. So, again, quite a lot of, , , corporate experience over the years, about 30 plus years working at large corporates. multinationals. and, I was raised, , like I said, in a little farming town, in a rural town of South Africa, in sugarcane plantation, , so So for me, , coming through the journey that I've had over the years and moving over to [00:04:00] Australia, starting at such an, a big organization working at such a, , illustrious organization like the banking regulator for Australia was quite a success for me back then. I think I mentioned to you previously, JR. I grew up in apartheid South Africa. I. If you recall, , apartheid was a segregation of people of color, , various people of, color. We lived, in a segregated manner. And, for me growing up, in the latter part of that, , before Nelson Mandela was freed from, from prison, I was in my, , 15 years old at that time. Just before then. And so my teenage years was a very disrupted period in my life, because I was part of that resistance, that struggle to free Nelson Mandela. And as young as I was, , I was, part of all the protests and all of the things that happened at that point in, in our history. And, , one of the things I learned growing [00:05:00] up, Through that was always challenge the status quo, , challenge all of, , the injustices and the oppression that, from that period. And, I have a strong sense of purpose and justice, and everything that I do in, in how I lead, in what I expect of my leaders is driven by that. So that's just something that's quite, important for me. recently, after about 33 years. So I have had a very, good career, , over that period. I worked for the best of organizations. , given my background, I am very driven person, so I'm always focused on, , outcomes, achievement. I wanna be the best. I wanna be up there with everyone else. I wanna be seen as equal. I. I went on a, a leadership coaching, , course myself about 10 years ago. I was, , partnered with Helen Wiseman, whom as well. She's an excellent coach and, that was my entry into, into [00:06:00] Australia at that point in time. And coaching for me at that point was quite a pivotal moment in my career because it just opened my mind to the possibilities. It challenged my thinking, my frame of thinking, and it helped me, determine the next 10 years. So the next 10 years from that coaching experience was my thriving years. , I actually surpassed and exceeded all the expectations that I even wanted out of my, 10 years. And so I found myself last year thinking where to next? , I've got to the level that I wanted. I actually had overachieved at that point in time. and, , I wasn't really enjoying it to be honest. I got to the, the title I wanted, I got to the salary, , more than what I expected I would ever earn in my lifetime. And there was just something that was missing. and I then, reengaged, , this, my coach from the past being Helen and I [00:07:00] embarked on a new, journey to basically, look at what the next 10 years is gonna be for me. And I did the most craziest thing. And, and Helen says, it's not crazy. It's really, being bold and being courageous and I resigned from what I knew. So I left my 30 plus year sort of profession without a job, without something to go, go to. And, a year later, I'm really excited about the possibilities. , I'm earning money. I've had, a nber of different customers. So I've run a consulting business and I'm a non-executive director. So today I've got made an offer for the third, directorship as well. So, , that was another win for me. I. really my, current position is I run my consultancy. I continue to do my risk governance and compliance work, and I go around helping organizations for purpose, organizations that are aligned with my values and I help them be the best they can [00:08:00] be. So grow their business in a very sustainable, in a very, safe manner. and I use data. I use a data-driven approach to achieve that outcome. So that's where I am in my current career. , really loving it. I am training to be a coach as well, and it's really been, quite a momentous moment in my life. J.R. Flatter: Well, there's a ton there. A ton of richness there. , thanks for all of that. , we have here in America, we have our own history, similar to what you were describing for your third generation. And how that all started. And I suspect a lot of Americans, not negatively, but just I suspect that they have no idea that that occurred, between India and South Africa. so I've got my notes here and I've got you in front of me and I've got your bio over here to my left. There's tons of, richness in your life. And I can't believe you said two or three times my 30 year career. I'm thinking she [00:09:00] must have started when she was 12. so I love this idea of the, the next 10 years. 'cause Lucas and I talk about the 30 year vision a lot. And when you initially ask someone, the younger they are, the harder it is. Look, 30 years into the future, I was doing that this morning on a bicycle asking myself, , what does that look like? even at my age. I know Helen worked with you. We, we all love Helen and everybody who listens to this podcast, knows and loves Helen. how do you get started on that, creating that 10 year vision? Dhanesh Singh: so there's this concept of, , discover. So discover and become so, I went through that sort of discovery process of identifying my strengths, my Clifton strengths, and, , I was quite, intrigued by what I found. So 10 years ago when I worked with Helen, I was a very different person. I had different, very [00:10:00] different, , Clifton strengths. And, that helped me for that period of time. and now I have another, , different set of Clifton strengths. And again, part of that discovery process. I have a vision board, , of what I like to do, what I want to do, and that's helping me work through in a very logical, iterative manner around what my next steps are. Lucas Flatter: so like JR said, there's a lot in your background that kind of jped out. Me and it, it's like you said, rich with detail and, and things that I'm interested in learning about. , so you started with saying identity is very important to me. we do think about identity a lot in, in terms of how, corporations and organizations are kind of encouraging people to be themselves. and especially asking somebody that's experienced like overt segregation,[00:11:00] , do you feel that, , these large corporations or organizations that you've worked with have kind of embraced your identity and allowed you to be yourself in that way? Dhanesh Singh: they probably didn't have a choice in the matter. So I, I guess, , , and it's a very interesting point. , diversity and inclusion is such an, a topical thing. , for many years people have been talking about it. I don't know that people have quite cracked it yet, right? So, , for me, I am who I am, take it or leave it. And it's simply because of the learnings of my guru, , Nelson Mandela. , that's innate. It's built into me. It's part of my d n a whereas I do know a lot of people that do change around the circstances and the environment in which they are. And it's sad because, , that's, you gotta fake it till you make it. They see, unfortunately, that doesn't allow people to be authentic. True, authentic self. So identity is absolutely [00:12:00] crucial. It helps me stay authentic. It helps me remember my roots, right? It helps me sort of, define my values and align my values. So, and I think everyone, wherever you come from, , there's migration and globalization is a big thing at the moment, right? It'll continue to become a big thing. And I think people need to be comfortable in their own skin. Organizations like are they're speaking, talking the talk, they need to start walking the walk, I think, it's up to us people like myself to educate people. I. From the day I walked into this country, into Australia, which is amazing, , it's a great country to be in, but it's a journey. It's learning for everyone. , as the country evolves with, with migration and the changing landscape in the demographics, and Australia is learning, , it's up to us, , people like myself and migrants. To teach and to educate about culture, what's important [00:13:00] to us, , and about, our authentic self. Lucas Flatter: thank you for that. Now mean that level of, , it's a. To me and not the, , existing, prevalent culture to understand it, just out the off the gate. So that's interesting. Thanks. J.R. Flatter: Yeah. Thank you for that. And, and I think as, as I think of, , from a. E o chair and a chairman's chair. , what are the core values of my organization and any organization that might be listening or watching. And not to split the academic hair too finely, but the more I think about this and, and talk to, , people such as yourself, you need to keep that list pretty sharp and clear and. Then let everything else go right. The way you wear your hair, the way you speak, the way you dress. , is that really existential to the company and should it even be on the list? I'd love to hear you talk about that. how do you help[00:14:00] identify those existential few things that we all agree on, and then let everything else go. Dhanesh Singh: It's a very good point. It's a, it's a very, , , interesting sort of perspective. I guess to your point, your core values have to be certain, , a nber of things like your code of conduct, it doesn't matter, whatever sort of walks of life you come from, there's certain minim requirements everyone needs to, sort of comply with. Your values. There's certain things about how you treat the customer, how you design products, customer experience, those sorts of things, complying with the law. Those are your absolute on the list things. So I agree with you from that perspective. And then everything on the peripheral, everything that allows people to be their authentic self allows psychological safety, should be allowed to, , just be. I suppose, , and I think [00:15:00] there's a lot of, , campaigns, there's a lot of initiatives across a nber of, , L G B T Q I, , cultural diversity. There's all sorts of, , ageism. There's all sorts of, , levels of diversity that companies are promoting Drive home the awareness, but it sort of needs to also come from each of us, , each of us are citizens of the world, we all need to bring it from within, I suppose, and allow each person to be, , so I think it's just allowing people to be, , that's the, the crux of it all. J.R. Flatter: I think the, the, the real heart and soul of what you're saying is the two can coexist. It's not an either or, Dhanesh Singh: Absolutely, J.R. Flatter: and you can be supremely profitable and inclusive at the same time. Dhanesh Singh: totally, totally. Lucas Flatter: you had mentioned that you're working with, , four purpose organizations. Is that. [00:16:00] synonymous with nonprofit. And, and if so, , what's that distinction? What is like the for purpose nomenclature or label, how is that distinctive from saying nonprofit, I guess. Dhanesh Singh: Yeah, it's an interesting point because, , I work for banks and financial services there for purpose. , they help people buy homes. They help people, Manage the financial wellbeing. So there's definitely for purpose in that, in corporate as well. so yes, to your point, I help for purpose, and not for profit. So I'm very particular about who I work with. I select, I choose who I wanna work with, and if I see that there is no, , the purpose is not aligned. I, what I view as for purpose, I then don't pursue that opportunity. So I think for me, , it's very clear on that distinction. Lucas Flatter: When people in the states are choosing to work with someone, it's , it's [00:17:00] almost this idea that the profit will result in, in positive social outcomes and, , positive impact on people's lives and things like that. no matter what the mission is, sometimes like the profit is kind of the motivation. So is that one of those things that. Do you hold as a value that says, oh, I need to agree with the mission. Dhanesh Singh: I mean, look, at the end of the day, profit is an important aspect of any business. It's the the cornerstone, the, the, the ultimate, right? So, I don't dispute that, , I've been working for many organizations where I benefited from good bonuses, , incentives, profit incentives, as long as that comes with the fair amount of, , Good governance as long as that's coupled with the right behaviors, with the right risk culture, with the right tone from the top, , and the right values. I [00:18:00] think it's a good mix. because it's those companies that are for-profit organizations that can, , you've, they say you've gotta be able to fill your cup to be able to do and help others. And so it's a necessary, mix. For society as a. J.R. Flatter: I'm glad to hear you say that and great question, Lucas. the reason I've unsuccessfully retired twice and I'm, in my third career is I realized through my strengths that creating jobs was part of my life's mission and my give back. I was just sitting here yesterday with a new hire this is her not first job ever, but she's been a stay at home mother for her entire life and now entering the workforce and so, right. All of this was so brand new and in America we say drinking from a fire hose, you're consing so much information, it's just overload. And she said, now that you've given me permission to ask [00:19:00] questions. And I thought, wow, I've never really thought that I had to say that out loud. But, it just changed the whole dynamic. And so, going back to your, the heart and soul of your identity, as a, a leader being explicit about this is okay. we do encourage you to speak and ask questions and, and be authentic. You mentioned one of my favorite words you said early on in your comments. I'm driven. I love that. cause , it's one of the characteristics that we talk about a lot. Tell us about being driven, but also being purposeful, in your mission, Dhanesh Singh: yeah, I'm an extremely driven person, so, , and I think partly because of, my background, , when you stem from hble beginnings, and when you're driven by hunger. Right. you go all out. So I think that's sort of been my driving force be, , behind me. working in organizations, I think, a lot of organizations [00:20:00] benefited from my, Strive because where, when you are project driven, when you've got a particular task, I'm very task orientated. , a lot of my roles over the years, Australia in the last 10 years have gone through quite a big shift in the financial services industry because there were a lot of conduct issues, governance issues, at least in the last 10 years through the regulators. some of the biggest fines in corporate history. one of the organizations that I worked for had a 1.3 billion fine for financial crime, , compliance issues. And that's a lot of money. That's just the fine. And then, , to fix it cost another few, billion, billion and, , probably, , all the class action suits that came off that as well. So as part, My experience in life. I've had these tasks and these actions that we needed to be completed. And, that was where I was able to [00:21:00] demonstrate that drive. , the actionable tasks were quite clear. They were driven by regulatory obligations and commitments. a concept called enforcement, enforcement action or enforceable undertakings. so, I would say from my perspective, , that Drive helped those organizations through me. and, yeah, I suppose, drive and being driven is different for each person. For me, , there's a couple of things in my house of leadership, work, family self, right? Comes first. , well, family and self comes first before work. So I'm driven by the first two things, right? I've gotta make sure that is well taken care of, and I'm also driven by the purpose that I need to fulfill. To help people. So through the board directorships that I'm on at the moment, my drive and my advocacy and support for people that need [00:22:00] my help, it's channeled through those, , avenues as well. So, , drive and being driven is really, , different to each person based on their needs and where they are in their lives. Right. So 10 years ago, I couldn't do not-for-profit work. I just couldn't because we were not in a state or in a position to be able to do that. Now I'm in a position, , because I've gone through a journey, I've got a good balance. , I can create that balance where I can do a bit of both. I can take risks, I can, , support people that need, , need my help. I've got skill to offer. so I'm out there, , providing advice, governance services. I write policies, , I do compliance assessments for, pretty big not-for-profit organizations who are very grateful for the work that I do. J.R. Flatter: to bring our friend Helen, into the conversation one more time. she asked me one afternoon, what does capital mean to you? And we were [00:23:00] talking about many kinds of capital, but this was fiscal capital. And without even thinking I said, freedom. By having the drive to create financial freedom, I now can focus on family and self. , looking back across 40 odd years of doing this, my greatest joys come from the family and self, but the work created the opportunity. Lucas and I just spent the weekend in a mountain cabin, had 18 of us there, the entire family for the first time in several years. And if you don't have. The capital to, to set aside the time and, the travel associated. You don't get to enjoy that family itself. So I think it all works together. So, seamlessly, Lucas Flatter: so first of all, , I'm really interested in, , you used the word guru with, , Nelson Mandela, and I wanted to. Have a few details on what that means and how it's distinct from, , a teacher or a [00:24:00] mentor. And then also what lesson should all of us or , the corporate world be learning from Nelson Mandela. I. Dhanesh Singh: Wow. Where do I start? I suppose, , I think for me it's the sacrifices that he made, for somebody for 27 years of his life to choose to be in solitary, , confinement in, in prison to help millions of people to free millions of people. What more can I say? Right. So I think it's, , being selfless, standing up for what's right. there's so many, , quotes, but one quote that resonates, , very well with me is it always seems impossible until it's done. That's a famous quote, Nelson Mandela quote, and that's something I always put forward, whether it's to my family, my children, , the teams that I've, had [00:25:00] reporting into me, my leaders. I suppose that's the, the biggest takeaway from that experience, right? He freed 60 million people, or maybe 50 million people. 10 million people probably had the right, or 4 million people had the right to vote and the right of freedom and 55 million people didn't. Right. So, I suppose just staying the course, I'm not saying everyone should do 27 years in prison, but, , , he, he lost a lot. He lost his family. He lost time with his family. Right. But the day when I went to go and, , vote for the very first time with my 65 year old dad, who for the very first time went, , to go and vote at the voting polls, I can tell you one thing, it was just an experience. Never, like, there's nothing that can take away that experience. Right. the experience of freedom.[00:26:00] J.R. Flatter: So one of the themes that, that we teach is this idea of self-selection. Not waiting for the world to say, Dinesh, go into being a non-executive director. Dinesh, go into coaching. But you as an individual saying, I'm gonna go, I have a vision. I'm just gonna go make it happen. I think as a leader and as a coach trainer, that self-selection is gigantic to personal success, however you might define that. if you wanna run for office or you want to become a non-executive director, you wanna become a coach, just go do it. , and it sounds like that's a theme of yours as well, implicitly or explicitly. Dhanesh Singh: yes. No, absolutely. Look, I've always been the black sheep in the family, ? I've always been somebody that did something that was really different compared to everyone else. And for me, I. I don't operate within the confines. , people still think I'm crazy, like my family think what I'm [00:27:00] trying to do and this vision of mine, wanting to be a coach. I'm wanting to, , run a risk consultancy. I wanna do a board portfolio and I'm gonna do it. Like I'm wanna get onto, , lots of different boards. I'm getting onto my fourth board in a year. I've just, I didn't think I'll have one board in one year. I've just been offered the fourth board, I'm earning money. I mean, I think for me, the concept and I've learned from my, coach, our common, , associate, it's the principles of, imagine, discover and become. , it's about just sitting down, , a journaling. It's things I learned from the last bootcamp and everything kind of worked very well for me. , I engaged Helen, she introduced me to you. I went on the last year, October, I had the, , the bootcamp, the 30. It was incredible that whole journey because it helped me. It was just about taking the next step and the next step. Just iterative [00:28:00] steps, ? And it doesn't matter at the end of the day, , success is not about getting to a point. Success is about trying, making small steps and, progress. And for me that's enough. it's all you need really. Lucas Flatter: so the other day, , I was with all my siblings. We were staying in a cabin together and we were all together for the first time in a while, and we went on this really challenging hike and I was, I was surprised like how everybody powered through it. And, and everybody was very physically capable. And I was thinking, well, they must have been, , working out. All this time, and I'm not thinking about it. They're, they're practicing and getting ready for this. And, so my question is, what are you kind of working on in yourself and family time that, maybe people would be surprised about it? And if so, if it does affect your work and [00:29:00] what ways does it. Dhanesh Singh: yeah, so that's, I have this vision board. And on this vision board I've got a few different things, but , in the center of it is my, , family and myself. and for me, spirituality, I. I suppose it's not profound. it's just, , everyone has some level of spirituality, but for me it's just bringing it back home, , when you're busy. like, I've just really focused on my career. Not that I didn't focus on spirituality, but it was just something that I did when I had had time, whereas, I wanted to shift that around and focus my life around my spirituality. Right. And then everything else should come around, , fall around that. So that's where, , that's been my change, , my, focus in my life. I was a driver. Like I drove the kids when it came to, , , my son being an engineer, my daughter, being a [00:30:00] lawyer, that you gotta study, you gotta cut, , be the top, , in the class, that sort of thing. Even myself, I've like reassessed all of that and said, right, we need to rein it back in. What's important at the end of the day. Right. And for me, at the end of the day, it's spirituality that reminds us of our values that keeps us focused and centered. So that is really the biggest, , focus for me. Lucas Flatter: Awesome. Well, I'm glad we got to get that point in there. It's good. To hear as a parent. [00:31:00]