Establishing Two-Way Communication | with Eury Marte

Building a Coaching Culture - #82: Establishing Two-Way Communication | with Eury Marte === Eury Marte: [00:00:00] Because if we just keep focusing on continuous improvement, but we're improving the wrong thing, are we really improving? J.R. FLatter: Hey, welcome back everybody. J. R. Flatter here with Lucas. How you doing Lucas Flatter: Hello. J.R. FLatter: distinguished guest today is Yuri Marte. Just remind Yuri and everybody else who we are and why we're here. We're talking to leaders of complex organizations that are leading and succeeding in this 21st century global labor market.[00:01:00] Yuri, as you're aware, we just entered, well, no, we're in the middle of the 51st year of the all volunteer force for the Department of Defense, and so even the Department of Defense is competing in that global labor market. you know, how do you attract and retain the world's best talent? We think it is through building a coaching culture, and that's where we're helping Department of Defense and other government agencies and also for profit and non profit organizations and their leaders do that. So with that intro, take a second, Yuri, you're probably a humble person like a lot of leaders are, but take a second and brag about yourself and the great work you're doing. Eury Marte: well, JR, thank you. Lucas, it's great to be here with you. I appreciate the opportunity. about me. Yuri Marte, years, active duty. One of the things that is a common thread throughout my career and my life is there's a lot of firsts. And a lot of that is tied to a lot of curiosity, but a lot of it is also a lot of exploration. And [00:02:00] it starts with my parents with first generation American. They immigrated here when I was just two years old. I'm the first in the family to graduate from college, first to speak English. first to serve in the military. and it's been a blessed career. Currently, I am the, innovation coach with Project Mercury, which is a collaboration between the Air University and the University of Michigan. And our purpose is to... Cultivate and grow innovators in different organizations. Really teach people how to think differently and tackle problems in different ways through creative problem solving methodologies. we really focus on the competing values framework. That's at the core of what we teach. and that's all based on four different archetypes that each individual has in different situations. And it's really understanding that, but my innovation journey, I've been in the innovation space for the last five years and, really it kicked off when I was a Deputy Chief Innovation [00:03:00] Officer for Allied Air Command, NATO's air component. And, there we had a really unique task of taking multiple different, lines effort. streamlining them and making them translatable across different multinational perspectives. So that really opened my mind up to the different opportunities and the different, ways that people think approach different problems. And through that, I started Entering into more of the coaching sphere and helping people understand how to be more curious, how to be more open minded and apply, their different strengths and, understand their shortcomings and find others that complement those shortcomings to really make it an organization that moves forward towards those goals that, that their leaders have. J.R. FLatter: You know, when I think about DoD and Everybody forgive me for saying this out loud. I don't necessarily think of an you know, a battleship that can turn on a dime. and the Air [00:04:00] Force is part of that. Lucas and I are evidence that we're moving in that direction. That's what he and I do. And it sounds like that's what you're doing as well. so when you read,Innovator's Dilemma or any book on innovation, it'll tell you, you have to set aside some group. Outside of the normal bureaucracy to make innovation really happen. Has that been your experience as well? Eury Marte: Absolutely. I think one of the biggest hurdles that we have when we try to innovate, when we try to change in any organization, is trying to get over those bureaucratic hurdles, and sometimes one of the most difficult things to do, especially there's certain processes that have been ingrained and been followed for so long. So really go and say this is probably a different, there's a better way to do this. How about we take a look at that and experiment with these new things and to get leaders sometimes who are, I guess for lack of a better word, kind of like just adopted that status quo and kind of gone through. 'cause hey, why do we need to fix it? if it ain't broke, don't fix it.[00:05:00] it's one of those challenges that I think Drew. Showing the different benefits. And one of the things that I've been talking a lot lately is disruptive innovation and really looking at it as like the name of the game is disruptive change rather than continuous improvement. Because if we just keep focusing on continuous improvement, but we're improving the wrong thing, are we really improving? So looking at that disruptive improvement. and disruptive innovation, it makes us look at it from a different lens and open up our aperture to really observe what the problem is. We're so hell bent sometimes on the solution. We all want to find the solution to the problem. So in many workshops and many coaching, one on ones that I have with people, when you ask them to describe the problem and you ask them to describe their circumstances. They immediately [00:06:00] jump to different solutions that they think are novel and the one bright idea that this is gonna solve our problem. But what we find is that solution has either been tried and failed and we don't really understand the problem or why that solution failed in the first place. So if we really take a step back and like I like to say, is let's fall in love with the problem, not in love with the solution. Because then we really dive into understanding that problem, that our organization, our work center, our interpersonal relationship, whatever that problem is, we really understand it and then we can start working together towards a solution. J.R. FLatter: You just quoted Einstein indirectly, by the way. Fifty five minutes to figure out the problem, five minutes to Lucas Flatter: Oh, great. Eury Marte: absolutely love that quote, because it's so true. It's so true, you know, it's another quote that's kind of been attributed to, I guess, Abraham Lincoln, it's if I'm given four hours to chop down a tree, I'm spending three hours sharpening the J.R. FLatter: going to start [00:07:00] using that one too. Lucas Flatter: so I'm thinking about if you have kind of a method for solving a problem, and you say, you know, it's a machine, I put 10 into it, and you know, 2 goes towards this, and then I get 15 back, and you're okay, we can increase How many people we're putting through or, you know, how many widgets go through, but the innovation might say, you know, it's going to cost us 30 right now. And then eventually we're going to save money. I can kind of see where an organization might say, let's do the predictable thing for the predictable results. How do you kind of disrupt that? Like you're saying. Eury Marte: axe. I think it starts really sitting down and having a conversation of what is, what are the fears? Why are we not doing what we are supposed to be doing or why are we not experimenting? And then it goes into understanding that if we don't disrupt the process, someone else will. So right now in the DoD, we obviously, are always [00:08:00] preparing for, deterrence and defense. We always focus on deterrence and defense. It's if we don't disrupt the way we're doing things, our adversaries will. And we need to really understand what the problems are that are holding us back. What things are slowing down acquisitions processes? What things may not allow us to, develop the weapons systems that we need or develop the people and the mindsets that we need those people to have? And then how can we actually take a step back, look at the way we're training and equipping our individuals to meet those demand signals that are There and present. And if they're not there today, they will be there tomorrow. So it really takes a little bit of outside the box thinking when it comes to how do we solve these different problems? and I think it really starts with that one on one introspection of what is it that's holding me back? And fear that I'm not going to move the organization in the right direction? [00:09:00] Is it fear that I'm going to lose money? Is it fear that my reputation's at stake? Whatever those fears may be, really addressing them and then understanding how we can work through that. one of the things that I love, a book that I love a lot that I recently read, again, Brian Holiday's The Obstacle is the Way. It's not avoiding the obstacle. That's not the way. You know, just acting like the obstacle doesn't exist. And just avoiding those difficult things, those fears, that's not going to move us forward. But really going through with a level of understanding and moving beyond that fear is what's going to help us progress as an organization, as an individual, as a human race, really. Lucas Flatter: That paints a clear picture. Thanks. J.R. FLatter: Yeah, you're singing our song, too. We look at this very holistically across work, family, self, personal and professional, In the very beginning, you mentioned a model with [00:10:00] four ARP types. If you could back us up a step and tell us the model, where it came from, and how you're using it, I'd really appreciate Eury Marte: Yeah, absolutely. the model is actually, it's a competing values framework, and basically... Dr. Jeff DeGraff from the University of Michigan, he took the competing values framework and the model, the four archetypes are the sage, collaborator, the athlete, the person that wants to go fast, do it now, the artist, which is that visionary thinker, and the engineer, which is the process driven, data driven decision maker. And what we find that we, depending on the situation, fall into one of these archetypes, sage, athlete, artist, engineer, and those are our preferences. Those are, that what we lean most towards. just to explain them really quickly, the sage is the [00:11:00] very collaborator, very team culture driven individual. the athlete is somebody that wants to go fast, do it now, do it quick. What is my ROI? Artist is the, artist is the visionary, that moonshot thinker. How can we grow exponentially? That's 10x everything. And then the data driven engineer is just that, somebody that's very process oriented. deliberate about what they do and how they do things. They don't welcome change unless there's some data driven reason for change. in different organizations, we have different leaders that subscribe to certain archetypes. as innovators, we want to communicate our different ideas, different processes, different innovations, It's important to understand what archetype our leaders ascribe to, because if I, my primary preference is sage artist, so I'm very [00:12:00] culture, education driven, but I also have these moonshot ideas. If I approach my boss that may be a blue, athlete, then What happens is, I'm not going to connect my ideas, my innovation, to their preference. So understanding that, I can now frame the way I communicate my idea to my leadership in order to actually move the idea forward. J.R. FLatter: Yeah, I love it. Yeah, he presents with us, a couple times a year. Eury Marte: he's a very, athlete, I guess, in every sense of the word, right? He's very Revin, let's go then, let's go fast. I love,speaking with him. I actually entered into the Project Mercury. it was very serendipitous into that, into that space. I was looking up different innovation groups and different forums on LinkedIn actually of all places and, found the Project Mercury Innovators Program and, saw that they were, they had a call out for their next cohort, [00:13:00] and that cohort was going to target, how do we better partner with our allies to deter aggression? And, I signed up, joined that group, went through the cohort, it was cohort eight, about a year and a half ago. Our group focused on disinformation and how we better, deter and defend against disinformation in the DoD. I then returned back in Cohort 9 as a coach, coaching training, and that was an eye opening experience because our team then focused on how do we improve military community relationships, and I had the opportunity of coaching a very diverse and, Incredibly smart team of individuals from disparate locations across the DOD and it was a very eye opening, I've since returned and kept coaching and been involved in that community that has been incredible. Not only the people that I've met, but the ideas that we've shared and the different thoughts and perspectives that we all have been [00:14:00] able to share amongst each other. Lucas Flatter: we spoke, about needing a leader to want the feedback. So they want, they need to solicit feedback and be open to it. and, you know, demonstrate that they're willing to listen. I'm also thinking about that from the perspective having a diverse team, whether you're talking about those archetypes or different ethnicities and backgrounds. How do you kind of... encourage and say we're open to this diversity of opinion and background and everything. Eury Marte: I think it starts at every single level. We have the opportunity to show, not tell. And one of the things that I like to do is, I like to show the value of having that open dialogue and being receptive to feedback myself. the Air Force, we have a very clear feedback method that goes top down. Our supervisors provide a rating, an assessment. annually on where we are and where [00:15:00] we need to go based on what our goals are. We don't really have that feedback mechanism from the bottom up. So in establishing different relationships with different leaders, what I try to do is just have that open conversation and I ask for specific feedback on areas where I can improve. One of the things I've noticed is in the circles that I'm in, We're all high performance, so there's very little areas where you can really tell somebody you're really messing up here and you need to improve this. But I try to engage with each one of my leaders, each commander that I have, because I know that I'm doing good things and I realize that I appreciate the positive feedback that you're giving me. But what I ask is that you give me three constructive things that I can work on, and if you'll allow me, I'll do the same. Because what I like to do is for us individually to grow, [00:16:00] but also our organization to grow. And the only way that we can do that is if we establish a two way feedback mechanism where we make ourselves aware of the blind spots that we have all inherently have. As disruptive thinking that I think I'd like to be, and as an innovation kind of coach and individual that I am, I have my own blinders. And I don't realize these things, and hold others accountable, and I ask them, candidly, please share with me these areas that I need to improve in, or where I may be falling short, and I'll do the same with you. And when there's that level of trust in a relationship, then you can actually share these things candidly. Kim Scott says in her book, Radical Candor, there's a level of trust that's needed in order to be radically candid. If not, you're [00:17:00] just being an ass. Lucas Flatter: Okay, yeah, Eury Marte: But when you have that level of trust, you know that the individual on the other end is coming from a place that they want to see you succeed, not from a place of negative criticism. J.R. FLatter: I'm gonna change gears for a second, if you don't mind. You mentioned in the very beginning your immigrant journey. In my mind, I'm looking at your last name and my lizard brain, my non coach lizard brain wants to ask you where you're from, but that would be irrelevant to the conversation. But rather, I'd rather focus on the journey itself, focusing on you and your parents, if you don't mind. How did you Succeed in one generation. I mean, you're magnificently successful, because I think it's relevant to change and disruption and transformation. Eury Marte: Yeah, thanks for bringing that up because, you know, I think about everything that I've accomplished and the bedrock of it all have been my parents and the courage that it must have taken for [00:18:00] them to immigrate from Dominican Republic J.R. FLatter: I would have been right. Eury Marte: to, that was your guess, right? But to immigrate from Dominican Republic, and my dad came out here a couple years before I came, and my mother, came. he had his work visa, he got his,legal, residence card, and he was able to then, apply for my mom and myself to come out. he worked three different jobs, one full time job, two part time jobs, just making ends meet. he served in Dominican Republic in their, special forces SWAT team, military, that he saw that was not sustainable and that wasn't the life that he wanted to live and he came here searching for that American dream. And worked hard. And I saw that every single day with that work ethic that he, instilled in us. and then, my mom, she would basically, instilled in me two very valuable things, which was [00:19:00] honesty and kindness. And, you know, being honest with yourself, being honest with others, and then being kind to others, and being kind to yourself. Thank you. And, you know, just looking back at that journey of them raising me, and putting me through school and making sure that I had everything I needed to succeed, it was very honorable. And I think back to that, and the integrity that it must have taken for my dad to come here in the 80s, in the early 80s, and, he moved to New York City, and at the time, there was a lot of, illicit things going on. And he chose to follow the right path and work as a dishwasher, work in the kitchen, you know, make his way and start working at a restaurant, in different areas, went and worked at a supermarket where he rose to be a manager and that was his pride and joy to be able to put food on our tables. And. yeah, looking back at that, a lot of the things that I, [00:20:00] the challenges that I faced, in not speaking English until third grade, and then going into a bilingual class, and then fourth grade, it was my first year that I was fully English class, and I ended up failing the first time because I couldn't adapt. but that took a lot of, resilience, it really built a lot of resilience in me, and I look back at those times, very humble beginnings, and I think back to the struggles that my parents must have gone through to get me to where I am, and that's really influenced the way I parent, and, The other person, I mentioned, you know, my parents being very formative in that experience and growing up, but the other person was my wife. I met my wife, my now wife, Angela. She has been somebody who has Changed me in ways that I can't describe, makes me ambitious [00:21:00] every single day, makes me want to provide, want to be a better person, want to be a better father. I have two beautiful stepdaughters that have graduated college that we've been able to, you know, put them through school and so many things that they're out in the world doing great things and that's all based on that foundation that was provided. For me and then the love support and community that we've had that have gotten me to where I am and con and I continue to strive because of that work ethic that my dad that I saw every single day working 16 hours a day to provide for us and for my, myself and my brother. those are the things that, that I just hold dear, near and dear to my heart. J.R. FLatter: thank you for that's great. Lucas Flatter: since we've kind of gone into the topic of family a little bit, could you give us a little bit of your perspective and experience with Balancing the, you know, the work ethic with spending time with your family and [00:22:00] doing things for yourself. you know, how JR will say, work, family, self balance. Eury Marte: that's such an important point and I'm glad you're bringing that up because for a long time I failed to have that balance. I really focused on work and I thought that through what I saw in my dad working those 14 and 16 hours and just the big focus once, what was putting food on my family's table and showing them the work ethic, really failed to have that work life balance for some time. And it wasn't until, serious conversation with my wife and I, between my wife and I, where I had to throttle back. I had to find what, where exactly do I need to. Focus my energies on, because what I found was I was spreading myself way too thin. I was doing too many things all at once. And I'm guilty of doing that often. [00:23:00] So one of the things that I really love in the relationship that my wife and I have is that we are very honest in our critical feedback to each other. Just recently my wife's you're spreading yourself a little too thin you got. Two big education goals that you're going after right now. You've got three different things you're juggling at work. And you're still trying to spend time with us. You're trying to do things around the house. We bought a house just last year and there's a bunch of stuff to do. As any homeowner attest to, there is a lot going on. And it was a little bit of a fixer upper. she's let's start prioritizing these things. And that is the key right there. How do we prioritize those things that matter? And what are those things at the top of the list? And what I've found is that my top of the list starts with my family. You know, at first, I looked at it early in my career was let's prioritize work. Let's really hustle for the [00:24:00] next 10, 15 years. So then that way I can provide a great lifestyle for my wife and kids. Now it's, how do I spend quality time with those that really fuel me? Because those are the ones that, that time that I spend, that recharging time that I have, allow me to go back and really hustle at work. As opposed to going the other way around where I'm burning the candle on both ends of the, Lucas Flatter: Yeah, I definitely relate to that. Yeah. Like certain things you think are going to take energy and they actually give you like exercise, for example, like it's only going to make you stronger and more hard working, I think. Eury Marte: One of the things that I've been told in the past is, we have to look at work life balance as taking the analogy of your cell phone, right, you know, your cell phone, you use it all the time, the battery starts to drain, right, but then you plug it in and all of a sudden it's recharged and [00:25:00] it's ready to go. What is that charger for you? What is that plug that you get to tap into? And allow you to recharge and be able to go back fully capable of delivering whatever it is that your purpose in life is. What is it that drives you to deliver that? And we need to find what that charger is and sometimes we fail to find that charger. And by the time we actually start looking for it, it's a little too late. Because now we've either, you know, we've tarnished some relationships, whether they're work relationships, or, you know, friendships, or family. And it's tough to see when people get to that point where it's really difficult to now climb out of that self imposed pit that we've created. J.R. FLatter: Yuri, you just coached me. I have to take a note on something I just learned. so we talk a lot about intergenerational leadership, intergenerational coaching, but there's a story out there of [00:26:00] the father and mother who spend their life working so that their son can get educated so that his children can enjoy the fruits of those two generations of labor. And Lucas and I are living this right now, because he's, his kids are third gen for me. And I'll say it out loud, they're growing up in affluence, right? And so passing that to the third generation is a real challenge, right? So how do you keep that same drive and ethic while balancing work, family, self, while having respect for hard work, for lack of a better word? so we talk about, Lucas and I, in our coaching, the arc of sessions. We talk about the arc of a relationship because you have coaching sessions, a coaching relationship. We talk about the arc of your leadership across your life, family, friends, church, soccer teams, wherever. You've just taught me the arc of [00:27:00] generations. That's what that is. That's the arc of generations. Eury Marte: Beautiful. J.R. FLatter: Yeah, talk about that a little bit. This will be my last question. Lucas always gets the last question. So let's talk about the arc of generations for a little bit. Eury Marte: You know, I love that. The Arc of Generations. And I think, yeah, you know, thank you for allowing me to share that. You know, obviously, I want to say that again just because, you know, thank you for sharing that because that's a really beautiful insight. and, you know, way of looking at it. So the Arc of Generations, One thing that I'd like to touch on that you just brought up is... Difficult things. How do we continue to pass on to that third generation to continue to doing difficult things? And it's one of those difficulties that we kind of experience more and more now. we have all these technological advances. We have so many things that make life so much easier and that don't really require us to do a lot of manual labor. Which... Some may argue manual labor or, hard, soft [00:28:00] skills. but really when you look at doing these difficult things, it's just how do we transition at the difficult things that we need to look at? Because when dad growing up, his difficulty was manual labor. He had to go to work, he had to throw boxes, he had to do these different things that, and he'd come home exhausted and. You know, my difficulties were different than his, and our children's difficulties are going to be different than ours. it's how do we instill in them the act and the value that lies behind doing those difficult things. And I think it's finding areas that require discipline. Because discipline is very... difficult to maintain. It's really difficult to continue to do something and persevere through something that is difficult. We see this very often whereas people, as soon as they encounter some form of difficulty, I'm either not smart [00:29:00] enough, I am not, educated enough,I've not had the experience, this is uncomfortable, get me out, the fight or flight kind of situation kicks in. What we need to do is, how do we teach them? The question that I would ask is like, how do we teach them to persevere through these things? So like Angela Duckworth talks about it really well in her book, Grit, right? It's you know, like success, when we look at success, It's going to change in that arc of generations. Success for them is going to look different than success was for us. But I think two things are going to stay true, is the passion and perseverance that it takes to get to that success. So how do we instill these practices in the next generation so that way, yes, it adapts what we may think was difficult for us, that old joke of, I walked three miles backwards, bare feet. To get to school, right? it's it kind of, it changes and adapts. So how do we now [00:30:00] understand that new generation's struggles? And don't discount it. Acknowledge it. Because they're different, but they are there. They're real. J.R. FLatter: Wow. I love that insight. Thank you. Lucas Flatter: yeah, that is really good because it's I think with my son like when I was his age I was really into like video games and things and he is, he watches me sometimes but I'd rather like him watch me like play guitar or do like a cartoon or you know something that's like it requires skill and training and patience and you know discipline like you said. Eury Marte: Yeah, I think about you know, just my own journey, right? my, my dad growing up was, out working he grew up in a farm, so he had to work, you know, in the farm, and, you know, there's certain labor and stuff, and his idea of fun was, you know, being outdoors and in the fields and doing other things, right? I grew up in the city, in New York City, you know, playing video games, and my brother plays video games, and he just doesn't understand, you know, [00:31:00] what is this? Like, why are you spending so much time? You could be doing something else. So his idea is just... You know, how, what value are you getting from this? And, you know, what we have to look at is, the generations change. And I think, through that arc of generations is we need to find that sense of pride for what it is that we did that enabled that third generation to have what they have. You know, there, there's a lot to be said there. You know, we work really hard to provide a better lifestyle, and that is... The fruits of our labor, that better lifestyle that we've been able to provide that generation. Lucas Flatter: oh yeah, my, my last question, I've asked it a bunch of different ways and I just was talking to my brother about it and he said, the way he asks it is, what are you a geek about? You know, what are you really into that, that you want to share, maybe outside of work? Eury Marte: I've been reading a lot on Stoic philosophy. And I've really been geeking out on stoic philosophy. [00:32:00] I know I mentioned Ryan Holiday earlier. He was my introduction to Stoic philosophy, and I've been doing a lot of different readings about Seneca and Marcus Aurelius. one of my favorite books that I keep going back to, and I just gave it to a friend of mine today, is called, meditations by Marcus Aurelius. And I love being able to read. These principles and really Marcus Aurelius meditations were his private journals that were never intended to be published. And to see that some of the struggles that they faced 2, 000 years ago are still prevalent today. And they faced them in different ways. They didn't have AI or technology. Then how can we learn from that historical perspective? And... Have that level of introspection that allows us to face obstacles in ways that will [00:33:00] highlight a lesson or an opportunity or something that will help us grow as individuals, as partners, work mates, and an organization. Lucas Flatter: That's awesome. Yeah, we wouldn't have gotten to talk about stoic philosophy for that. J.R. FLatter: Yeah, I've purchased that book. I haven't read it yet. it's good to hear you say it, as your recommendation.