Servant Leadership: The Relationship between Service, Leadership, and Love

Building a Coaching Culture - #90: Servant Leadership: The Relationship between Service, Leadership, and Love === J.R. Flatter [00:00:00]: Servant leadership is very fulfilling. To serve others, to create an organization in in which love is accepted and thrives and changes the course of people's lives. Speaker B [00:00:15]: You're listening to the building a Coaching culture podcast. If you need to compete and win in the 21st century labor market as an employer of choice, this podcast is for you. Each week, we share leadership development, coaching, and culture development insights from leading experts who are developing world class cultures in their own organizations. And now here's your host, J. R. Flutter. J.R. Flatter [00:00:47]: Hey. Welcome back, everybody. JR Flatter here with Lucas. Lucas Flatter [00:00:50]: Hello? J.R. Flatter [00:00:51]: Just the 2 of us today. We're probably gonna have I wouldn't say the weirdest conversation yet, but the least just the least defined the conversation yet. I don't know if you've heard that Richard Branson quote, if you're offered a job, you have no idea how to do it, take the job, and figure it out. It quite literally happened to me yesterday. We have this annual event and, our guest speaker is a very famous retired leader and called and said, hey, I'm not gonna make it. And it's a room full of this person's peers. And the topic was servant leadership. And my name on the shirt. J.R. Flatter [00:01:33]: It's my event. And so everyone looks at me and says, can you fill these shoes? And I'm like, Of course not. How could I possibly, as a non famous non retired leader at the highest levels, talk to my peers about servant leadership. So I took Richard Branson's advice and said, yeah, I could do that. And so ended up having a conversation with this room full of amazing people about servant leadership. And I still don't know if I know what it means. So, let's have a conversation about that, if you don't mind, because I think it'll develop my thinking beyond my preparation and beyond my execution yesterday. And maybe it'll finally answer this question for me. Lucas Flatter [00:02:27]: Yeah. I guess I think about when I just hear that term, and I even Lena and I, my wife, were looking at schools for our son, and One of the schools mentioned that, like, oh, we're our goal is to build servant leaders. And I was surprised that that's showing up, like, so often, and it's such a prevalent topic right now. And I guess I think about the potential a leader has For impact and, I mean, the negative things that could come up like taking advantage of people or leading people astray or, you know, Succumbing to your own selfish, you know, wants. So as a contrast to that, a servant leader, I'm assuming should lead you towards the path that's gonna benefit you, and they're not being selfish and, you know, not being, like predatory at all. So that's just what comes to mind immediately. J.R. Flatter [00:03:25]: Wow. I love that word predatory because I would have used the word coercive. I might start using the word predatory power. A lot of people that you and I interact with. They become afraid it's too strong, but they avoid power, and they avoid leadership because of some of those historical predators. Yeah. What a beautiful word. A god. J.R. Flatter [00:03:54]: It's a horrible word, but what a beautiful way to describe that horrible power, predatory power. Because you and I always talk about referent power. And maybe I'll start talking about servant power because for me, and this is part of the mystery that you're gonna help coach me through as you always do. There's a relationship between leadership, service and love. And I know at first when I say that even when I say it out loud to myself for the 100th time, it sounds unassociated, uncomfortable. But there's something going on there, and I want to explore it. So you said indirectly, there's a relationship between service and leadership. In your definition of what leadership is, and certainly in mine, and everyone in that room last night was a servant leader. J.R. Flatter [00:04:52]: They led a cause more important than themselves, and that's what service is, service to someone else. Opportunities to do a lot of other things, yet they choose to continue to serve in the role of a leader. And if you think about this left, I don't mean this politically, but on the left side and the right side of an event, we're very comfortable or more comfortable talking about love after the agreement. I was a member of the Marine Corps for many years. I loved my marines. I think they love me back. Marines love each other. But when you're being recruited into the organization and the recruiter is trying to tell you, yeah, you're gonna join this amazing organization, and it's a 100 of years old association of that will change the course of your life. J.R. Flatter [00:05:51]: Telling that story before you've seen it is very, very difficult, anything? You might have nailed it because of predatory power. I'm suspecting perhaps that that recruiter is being predatory rather than service, servant. Lucas Flatter [00:06:10]: Me and Oliver, someone that works with us in family as well. We were talking about the prototypical recruitment station in, like, a low income neighborhood. And It's like on one hand, you think, okay, that could be predatory, but on the other hand, it could be that that arm reaching up and, you know, helping somebody. So it's like yeah. It it almost depends on the individuals that are in that particular place or because, Yeah. Power can go either way. J.R. Flatter [00:06:42]: Yeah. Of all the different kinds of power that we're most familiar with, positional power as the one that we think of, the CEO, the COO, the commanding officer, the sergeant major. It's also reward power, expert power. Someone like me with PhD, you would expect them an expert in something, or the university wouldn't have granted me the degree. Relationship power, I know a guy who could help you fix that. Reward power and even coercive power, and maybe this is where I really need to think a little more about in coercive with predatory or maybe just adding predatory onto the list because it's even more powerful and destructive than coercive. Power has its place. They all have their place at one time or another. J.R. Flatter [00:07:34]: In service, within a relationship of love, in our teaching. You and I talk a lot about there are a few absolutes, maybe predatory power because of its void of any opportunity for love. Can I love anyone that I'm a predator of? I don't think so. Lucas Flatter [00:07:56]: And you think about, like, what does love mean in this context? Because, I mean, that's such a huge loaded word, but it's like Like, regardless of your position and my position, I guess, like, you think about love being this, like, almost transcendent feeling that connects us. And if you're not trying to bring people together And use their like, what are their goals? Their goals should align with my goals. That's I think that's loving in leadership is Taking the voice that's not heard. There's a word for this. Marginalized. So taking like, if somebody's being quiet, you know, Ask them what their thoughts are, give them space to present their feelings. And J.R. Flatter [00:08:45]: Yeah. There are many different definitions and appropriateness of the different kinds of love. Lucas Flatter [00:08:51]: You hear, like, stewardship as well? Like, we're sharing resources in some way or another in, like our time and our energy, and I want you to be a steward of that time and energy as a leader. J.R. Flatter [00:09:05]: Yeah. And this is really opening a lot of lines of thought for me that because I talk about power all the time, power in the hands of a leader is a beautiful thing. Power in the hands of a tyrant is a is a very destructive thing. And now we've we've introduced this idea of the predator and predatory power, and we were kind of having a discussion of the relationship between coercion and predatory. I think coercive can be predatory, but it's not the same thing. Lucas Flatter [00:09:36]: Because you could be using you know, you could be protecting somebody else, or, you know J.R. Flatter [00:09:42]: Well, my favorite example, of course, of power is getting a speeding ticket. And the reason that the government wants me to slow down is because it's not safe to drive that in certain neighborhoods and in certain highways at certain times of day, they're protecting you, and they're protecting others that they love. And so that course of power, some may consider it predatory that they want the money. But let's take a step back and think about the relationship between service, leadership, in love? And how do you get someone to crossover so that you get to go back to your analogy of the recruiting station in the poor neighborhood might be the best thing to happen in that person's life, that they accept the offer to join this organization that ends up being a very powerful influence. But how does the recruiter convince them? And I don't want to get into a discussion of recruiting because that's not what we're here to talk about, but I have been coaching a lot of recruiters lately, ironically. And one of the things I tell them is the person that you're attempting to recruit has to realize that you're talking to them as another human being. And now I'm going to add the word that you're not that there is a there is a love for them on the other side of yes. Join this organization and receive servant leadership and become part of this organization that's full of love? I mean, that was my first 2 questions yesterday to this group of esteemed leaders. J.R. Flatter [00:11:15]: I said, how does it feel to be in the room full of such leadership? Of course, everybody nods their head and says, yeah, it's great. And then I asked, how does it feel to be in a room that's so full of love? Because they all do in one way or another. And I'm looking at the 7 Greek definitions of love. In one way or another, they all love each other, but they're all on the other side of yes. So you think about the environment that we live in right now and and how powerful positively or destructively a single voice can be, telling either a story of hate or a story of love, how do we participate in that in a meaningful way? Lucas Flatter [00:11:57]: I think The speeding ticket analogy kind of brought up some thoughts where it's like you have individual goals, like, I wanna get somewhere fast. The individuals in an organization have their selfish desires and the leader might have their selfish desires, but I think the love is kind of foregoing those, like, oh, I'm not going to think about how I can get ahead, but I wanna think about how this organization can get ahead because that's the example that the leader might have set, you know? And they should be Deprecating that, not being selfish with, you know, their position. J.R. Flatter [00:12:37]: Yeah. So some ways, it comes back to not only a communication of a philosophy or a principle, but a demonstration of that philosophy or principle. Is kind of what I heard you indirectly say. I could tell you all day long, I love you. I love you. I love you. I'm going to serve you. I'm going to lead you as a servant leader, but then how can I demonstrate that to you? Well, once you're on the other side of yes, it's easy. J.R. Flatter [00:13:07]: So you've just coached me again, so let me write this down before I forget it. I say it all the time that culture is the story. So tell the story. Tell the story of examples of servant leadership through love. In the graduation And this morning, we we graduated 85 new coaches this morning, a global cohort from all over the world they had a distinguished guest speaker who, of her own choice, brought in testimonials, not of people that she has coached, but people who've been coached that brought testimonials to her about how powerful a coaching relationship had been to them. And it was pretty amazing to hear the unsolicited stories. And had I not understood coaching and not been a coach, I probably would have said, I wanna go get some of that. So maybe the way that we demonstrate servant leadership before yes is through telling the story of those who have said yes, which brings up an interesting thought because usually when you're trying to get someone to say yes, your turn to convince them on something about themselves. J.R. Flatter [00:14:30]: But now we're thinking about convincing them through telling someone else's story. A moment ago, if I were to try to recruit you to join the company, I would have said, I'm gonna pay you this much, and this is gonna be your job. You're gonna love the job. You're a computer scientist. Computer scientists love doing this kind of thing. But now if I'm telling the culture story, I'm gonna tell the story of let me tell you about 2 people who did joined. And here's a couple of things they had to say. I didn't ask him to. J.R. Flatter [00:15:01]: They just said, hey. I know you're trying to recruit another computer scientist. Let me tell that person what a great place this is. Lucas Flatter [00:15:10]: I just jumped to this thought of, like, When you're trying to get somebody to say yes, like, you might, like, need to give them some courage or, you know, they like, You know that principle that we're always talking about? It's like they might be you know, they're afraid that something bad could happen, and and you are confident that, you know, the outcome's gonna be good. And so you're trying to build that courage up in them. Wonder if leadership can be summed up kinda like that, where it's like, I'm trying to impart Something that I think is virtuous to help you, you know, even if it's just in the moment that I'm with you, like, you know, rallying the team and getting them excited. It's giving them something you're giving them a feeling almost, maybe. J.R. Flatter [00:16:05]: Yeah, and I think it's a confidence or a convincement, if that's even a word, that you're not being predatory, that you are actually being of service to them. And then in turn, they can be in service to others and enjoy that same fulfillment, which is the 1st time that that word has come into this conversation, but I think it's relevant in the sense that servant leadership is very fulfilling. And if you're not a leader and you watch what a leader does, you probably think that's exhausting, and it is, and it can be. You know? Like, it's a walk in the park, but it's very, very fulfilling. To serve others, to create an organization in in its love is accepted and thrives and changes the course of people's lives and the families of those people. Lucas Flatter [00:17:03]: Yeah. Taking that fulfillment that you get from interacting with all these other people and trying to impart that through those stories that you're mentioning. You're trying to convey, like, you know, these are all the positive things that I've seen being the leader of this organization, so, you know, you'll be part of that story. Like, you can share in the glory, so to speak, you know, like giving them just as much credit As the leader pretty much. J.R. Flatter [00:17:34]: So on the called side of yes, not gonna say on the side of no because it's no one said yes or no yet. But on the side of yes, telling the story through others' stories of the service that they've received, the leadership they've received, and the love that they've enjoyed and helped create and created in others, and then, like, it's the next step in that is that the person that you're talking to will have an opportunity to do those same things. That's pretty powerful. Lucas Flatter [00:18:09]: Yeah. It's an interesting idea. Like, because you also think about I mean, I think that's like a warm and, like, you know, that's an inviting kind of way to convince somebody. And then you think about, like, a Cold, calculating person, and how, like, mechanical that might be, where, you know, I'm I'm almost manipulating you on the spot and just trying to, like, get you to think this and then get you to think this and then get you to think this and then say yes, where it's like a formula. But we're talking about, like, trying to feel it in yourself and, like, draw it out in yourself and then try to yeah. It's different. Definitely. J.R. Flatter [00:18:51]: Yeah. I'm looking at my notes here. I'm not sure what we have accomplished, but I certainly got a lot more to think about than I did, you know, 30 or 40 minutes ago when whenever we started this chat. So the last thing I'll do is I tell the story all the time. I'm gonna start referring to your your word. I'll give you credit for it when I tell the story, but it's predatory power and how destructive it can be, which would be polar opposite of servant power. Used to travel to South Sudan quite a lot, and newest country on earth. They've been at civil war since the day they were founded, and it's all because of predatory power, predatory leadership. J.R. Flatter [00:19:38]: I won't even call that tyrannical predators. I don't like to use the word tyranny and leader in the same sentence or toxic and leader in the same sentence, for me, those things are mutually exclusive. The second you've accepted tyranny and the 2nd you've accepted being a predator, you've abandoned leadership. As I was visiting the capital of South Sudan, I kept noticing this is something other than being in the middle of a civil war and being abject poverty and refugees everywhere and feral dogs running around, babies crying, and all of those things that mine might experience. There was just something else that was different. And it finally dawned on me 1 morning to work out at the top of this building that I was staying in. Obviously, can't go for a run-in the middle of a civil war. That wouldn't end well. J.R. Flatter [00:20:38]: But I still wanted to exercise. And so I'd go to the top of the building and do what I could and watch the city come awake. And I realized over time, not a single person that I was watching, and I could see probably a mile around me on any side. Not a single person had any expectation to have breakfast. And that seems like such as a what's the word? Inconsequential. Inconsequential fact. But when you really think about how destructive predatory power was, think about tomorrow morning waking up in your home and your son and your wife, and you have no expectation. Maybe today isn't a day that we'll eat. J.R. Flatter [00:21:25]: That's what predatory power creates. And just the polar opposite, servant leadership, when also that predatory power creates hate, the polar opposite of love. I doubt if any of those refugees hated each other, but I bet they certainly hated the situation that had been created by these predatory tyrants. The polar opposite is servant leadership in service to others in a calling greater than their own, purposefully creating love and having every expectation that you're going to wake up tomorrow morning. And not only so if you think about Maslow's hierarchy of needs, every morning, that entire city woke up on the bottom rung of Maslow's hierarchy because of predatory power and the lack of servant leadership. Tomorrow morning when you wake up and when I wake up, I'm not gonna be a self actualization, but I'm somewhere in the middle of Moses hierarchy already because of servant leadership and people's willingness and ability to be in those roles. And I guess, how you and I contribute is to just continue to tell that story. Here's the destruction of predatory tyranny versus and the hate created with it, and here's the love and the value. J.R. Flatter [00:22:57]: You know, another thing that we talk about a lot that that I have felt to mention is letting perfection get in the way of greatness. Another thing I said last night is I have the hardest job in the world, and I have the easiest job in the world. I have the easiest job in the world because it's impossible to get that many people of that level of intellect and success in a room and not grow from being together. I have the hardest job in the world because I'm an imperfect leader. I'm an imperfect human being. And yet here I am talking about an ideal, an ideal that we call servant leadership. So I think one of the most important things that we have to first accept is the imperfection and not let it get in the way of greatness. And so here you have servant leadership that's creating breakfast, lunch, and dinner, and love and acceptance and empathy versus destruction and hate, predation. J.R. Flatter [00:23:58]: It's a pretty powerful, pretty powerful contrast, this imperfect ideal of service servant leadership when you compare it against predatory power and the hate that it creates? Lot to think about. Lucas Flatter [00:24:15]: Yeah. Yeah. So yeah. I think it is it definitely gives you, like, something to wrap your thoughts around, think about all the yeah. That destruction and awful consequences of bad leadership and, you know, not even bad, but, like like, we keep saying predatory. So I think this was really good. J.R. Flatter [00:24:36]: Yeah. And certainly, we'll come back and revisit it again. So thanks. Well, that concludes this episode of building a coaching culture. Speaker D [00:24:45]: I truly hope that this episode was helpful to you. If it was, be sure to follow us wherever you listen to podcasts. Maybe stop and give recerating or review, and share this podcast with someone who might find it helpful as well. Thanks again, and we'll see you next time.